On Sima Yi and traitorness

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Unread postby DianWei » Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:56 am

sure... but Sima Yi never directly did anything bad, and theres a lot of officers who had kids that were readily admitted to high ranks...
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Unread postby Xiao He » Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:01 am

DianWei wrote:sure... but Sima Yi never directly did anything bad, and theres a lot of officers who had kids that were readily admitted to high ranks...


Depends on what you want to believe I guess. Cao Cao never did anything bad to the Emperor. Doing something bad the Emperor is only one out of a hundred ways of usurping. It is only the final step.

Sima Yi stripped the Cao and Xiahou family of power and he controlled authority. He passed it on to his sons and told them to be careful. So he was implying they continue his work. Xiahou Ba said to Jiang Wei that Sima Yi was setting up his own house. He has seen first hand just how much the Sima family was absorbing and monopolising power. If we look at Cao Fang after Cao Shuang's removal, how much authority did he have? None, he was merely a puppet.
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Unread postby Ieyasu Xundari » Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:49 am

Killing the Caos and making him and his succsessors the future leaders is treachery to me.
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Unread postby Jeffro » Sun Oct 27, 2002 7:03 am

Sima Yi. a Very intelligent man, its difficult to say he was not a traitor. His intention may not have been merely to destroy the Wei empire at first, it is highly likely that the Sima's saw his advantage as the Cao's had grown more and more incompetent through the generations, and seized it as a means of preserving the legacy that cao cao had zeized.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:10 am

lordostrategy wrote:He did fight against Wei. He rebelled against Cao Fang. He did it after Fang went on the hunting trip with Shuang. That was a result of Shuang stealing his military powers. That is what he demanded before they be let back into Xu Chang. :wink:


Xiao He wrote:Sima Yi stripped the Cao and Xiahou family of power and he controlled authority. He passed it on to his sons and told them to be careful. So he was implying they continue his work. Xiahou Ba said to Jiang Wei that Sima Yi was setting up his own house. He has seen first hand just how much the Sima family was absorbing and monopolising power. If we look at Cao Fang after Cao Shuang's removal, how much authority did he have? None, he was merely a puppet.


No, he didn't illigitemately steal the military power. He was assigned as joint-regent with Cao Shuang by Cao Rui of the child Emperor, after which Cao Shuang was the one who tried to sieze all the power. Remember, Sima Yi was supposed to share power with Cao Shuang, but he had to feign illness to escape Shuang's wrath. Sima Yi didn't really do anything wrong to the Emperor, he was trying to get rid of Cao Shuang (who likewise wanted rid of Sima Yi)...although I admit he took it a bit far by exterminating the Xiahou clan.
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Unread postby Starscream » Sun Oct 27, 2002 8:32 am

Iznoach wrote:although I admit he took it a bit far by exterminating the Xiahou clan.


There's a saying that if you want to get rid of grasses, you will have to remove the roots as well, lest the wind blows and the grass will grow again. Sima Yi killed off the Xiahou clan as well to prevent them taking revenge later. This is synonymous with the practice of massacre of whole clans and others related if one member commits a heinous crime. I wouldn't comment on its moral implications, but seemingly, it's a politically good strategy.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Sun Oct 27, 2002 10:33 am

Cai Yan wrote:
Iznoach wrote:although I admit he took it a bit far by exterminating the Xiahou clan.


There's a saying that if you want to get rid of grasses, you will have to remove the roots as well, lest the wind blows and the grass will grow again. Sima Yi killed off the Xiahou clan as well to prevent them taking revenge later. This is synonymous with the practice of massacre of whole clans and others related if one member commits a heinous crime. I wouldn't comment on its moral implications, but seemingly, it's a politically good strategy.


While that is indeed a wise statement, I think in this case Cao Shuang didn't have the support of most of his family...he was using his own flesh and blood as his personal puppet, if you recall. He did have a small entourage, but I still don't think destroying the entire clan was wise.
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Unread postby Hotsuma Moritsune » Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:15 pm

He was a insensitive and ruthless wannabe strategist retard.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:30 am

Kotaro Asai wrote:He was a insensitive and ruthless wannabe strategist retard.

Are you refering to Sima Yi? If so, I think your statement does not hold at all. :D

Insensitive? No. In fact, he got a strong political acumen.
Ruthless? Yes. esp. when forced to act under certain circumstances.
wannabe strategist? Definitely not. He was one of the premier strategist of his time.
Retard? Obviously not.
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Unread postby Xiao He » Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:31 am

Great Deer wrote:
Kotaro Asai wrote:He was a insensitive and ruthless wannabe strategist retard.

wannabe strategist? Definitely not. He was one of the premier strategist of his time.


Especially when he has a disposable general called Zhang He to soften the landing when he got shot down by Zhuge Liang twice in the fourth expedition. lol
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