On Sima Yi and traitorness

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On Sima Yi and traitorness

Unread postby DianWei » Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:38 am

it is my opinion that sima yi is really not a traitor and is seemingly regarded as one consistently, as far as i understand he had nothing but pure loyalty for the house of wei, however the same cannot be said about his sons... did i miss something in the book or what?
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Unread postby SunJian » Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:09 am

First post!

I don't think Sima Yi is a traitor. He got rid of Cao Shuang so as to strengthen Wei, since Shuang was just corrupted with pleasures, unable to attend to his duties correctly. Afterwards, Sima Yi reinstated the Caos, meaning he did not desire the imperial throne. His behaviour was also exemplary against Zhuge Liang in his Northern Campaigns. He was an almost perfect general and excellent politician. He was most definitely not a traitor.
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Unread postby Xiao He » Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:14 am

SunJian wrote:First post!

I don't think Sima Yi is a traitor. He got rid of Cao Shuang so as to strengthen Wei, since Shuang was just corrupted with pleasures, unable to attend to his duties correctly. Afterwards, Sima Yi reinstated the Caos, meaning he did not desire the imperial throne. His behaviour was also exemplary against Zhuge Liang in his Northern Campaigns. He was an almost perfect general and excellent politician. He was most definitely not a traitor.


But what did Sima Yi do after he died? He handed over military and political power to his sons. We can read that both ways but considering what Sima Shi and Sima Zhao later did, it seems to be quite obvious. :)
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Unread postby DianWei » Sat Oct 26, 2002 2:54 pm

wha?
with that kind of logic you could say that liu bei destroyed shu, because he had liu chan succeed him...
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:20 pm

correct word = treachery
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Unread postby Mitsunari Ishida » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:19 pm

Although in the end his family bought peace to the land, and ruled well, he still was a traitor to the Cao family.
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Unread postby DianWei » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:35 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:correct word = treachery

ya... i had no idea... i seriously thought that the word was traitorness :roll:
meanwhile.... sima yi wasnt a traitor it was his sons, he didnt even, to my knowedge instill the ideas in his sons...
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Unread postby lordostrategy » Sat Oct 26, 2002 9:51 pm

*buzzer sounds*

W-R-O-N-G

He did fight against Wei. He rebelled against Cao Fang. He did it after Fang went on the hunting trip with Shuang. That was a result of Shuang stealing his military powers. That is what he demanded before they be let back into Xu Chang. :wink:
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Unread postby Xiao He » Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:16 am

DianWei wrote:wha?
with that kind of logic you could say that liu bei destroyed shu, because he had liu chan succeed him...


The only hereditary position was that of a King or Emperor. Sima Yi was a minister and there is no law which says it was hereditary. He had to give it back to the Court and let the Court decide who replaced him.

But Sima Yi handed over military and political power to his two sons and said there would be danger if they lost it. Is that not a sign of abusing and preserving immense power for the Simas?
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:25 am

I agree with Xiao He.

Like Cao Cao he illegitimately seizes military power and then expands his power base. Does he not then start killing the Cao's, starting with Cao Shuang & co. Xiaohou Ba even ends up surrendering to Jiang Wei.

Compare the situation upon his death when he hands over the power to his sons with Zhuge Liangs death. A marked difference.
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