The slaugther of Guan Yu's family

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The slaugther of Guan Yu's family

Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:08 pm

Do you think if Cao Cao or Zhang Liao were alive, would they be able to stop Pang Hui from killing Guan Yu's family?
Was it right for Pang Hui to wipe out the Guan clan? it was a affair betweens 2 states, Pang De knew he was going to die.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:38 pm

Why Zhang Liao? During the chaos in Shu, I'm not sure anybody would be that concerned with preserving one family when they have the Deng Ai/Zhong Hui problem

It would seem to be the filial thing to do, avenging the parent as far as my understanding goes. Sun Jian was just a fighting man, Quan still punished Huang Zu and his family for the death, Wei did it to Ma Chao, I'm not sure Pang Hui's actions were that odd
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:08 pm

avenging the parent as far as my understanding goes
But he shouldnt kill the whole clan for it though right? they say that Pang Hui would succeed his family but he didnt, he didnt even take credit for the downfall of Shu, yet he comes out of no where and kills the entire guan clan.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:35 pm

Pang Hui had a reason and probably hated Guan Yu, for killing his father. What does it matter to him, if Pang De knew he was going to die or not?
And he really had no reason not to avenge his father and could so even get rid of possible trouble for the future!

Letting arch enemies life, often is a poorly choice, one will regret.
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Unread postby Kasumi14 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:01 am

Letting arch enemies life, often is a poorly choice, one will regret

Yes; he had to kill all the family members to prevent having one of the family member who lives did the same thing as the did - avenging their family. If Pang Hu only killed Guan Yu and left his family alone, wouldn't there's chances that one of the Guan family member will rise and kill him to avenge his family?
Meh, most of my posts are in interrogative sentences...forgive my lack of knowledge.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:10 am

Cao Shang wrote:Pang Hui had a reason and probably hated Guan Yu, for killing his father. What does it matter to him, if Pang De knew he was going to die or not?
And he really had no reason not to avenge his father and could so even get rid of possible trouble for the future!

Letting arch enemies life, often is a poorly choice, one will regret.
dude they were just civilians, not even Cao Cao or Lu Bu would kill off Liu Bei's household just like that. Im surprised no one killed Liu Bei's household clan yet.

I dont get why Pang Hui got "the authority" to kill. I mean he hardly did any contribution to Jin or Wei.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:03 am

Shadowlink wrote:But he shouldnt kill the whole clan for it though right? they say that Pang Hui would succeed his family but he didnt, he didnt even take credit for the downfall of Shu, yet he comes out of no where and kills the entire guan clan.


Tell that to the Han lawmakers who would execute traitors families even up to the 5th degree

Presumably Pang Hui was part of the army in some way when Shu was conquered.

dude they were just civilians, not even Cao Cao or Lu Bu would kill off Liu Bei's household just like that. Im surprised no one killed Liu Bei's household clan yet.

I dont get why Pang Hui got "the authority" to kill. I mean he hardly did any contribution to Jin or Wei.


so were Ma Chao's wife and children (one murdered by Zhang Lu in revenge), so were Jiang Xu's family, so were Huang Zu's wife and children as well as the possible of Jiang Xia, so were the people of Xu. So were Dong Zhou's wife and children. So were those executed by the Han for the treason of someone in their family

Why did nobody kill off Liu Bei's household or Sun Hao's? Simple, that would be a great way of ensuring revolts by annoyed officers and that enemy warlords would fight to the death next time rather then surrender.

As for Pang Hui's right, we don't know what he did in Wei/Jin but he was fulfilling his filial duty to his father, he doesn't need to be high ranked to do that, just a son whose father was executed or murdered. As the Guan family was relatively unimportant compared to other issues at the time, nobody was going to stop him and so, as he hadn't been banned from it, he had the authority.
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Unread postby TheRealWolfman » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:55 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Shadowlink wrote:But he shouldnt kill the whole clan for it though right? they say that Pang Hui would succeed his family but he didnt, he didnt even take credit for the downfall of Shu, yet he comes out of no where and kills the entire guan clan.


Tell that to the Han lawmakers who would execute traitors families even up to the 5th degree


So if your saying the lawyers than were pathetic it was really difficult for someoen to plead the fif?
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Unread postby Shogun 2.0. » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:21 pm

What has to be remembered here was that in China during that period, and even beyond up to the overthrow of the Qing centuries later was that guilt was shared by the entire families. Collective punishment was the norm.

Individuals were unimportant in the Chinese mind to be blunt, you didn't punish just a single person, you punished their families also. For traitors collective punishment could be so severe that not only your family would be executed, but even your friends and their families. That was what happened to Fang Xiaoru, whose punishment was the only example in Chinese history of 'extermination to the 10th degree'. 873 people died altogether along with Fang.

Now that was the extraordinary example, normal executions were carried out to the 3rd degree until the Sui Emperor Yang extended it to the 9th degree in certain cases. So in this case Pang Hui probably carried out extermination to the 3rd degree. That kind of execution was your generation, your children's generation, and your grand children's generation. These 'generations' were not always literal, although there was an specific 'generation' for cousins as I understand it.

Now even though to us the idea of collective punishment is reprehensible Pang Hui was well within the law of the day to do what he did. In fact he was pressured to do so. By avenging his father by exterminating the clan of his killer he fulfilled his filial duty as a son to serve his father even in death. So blame the society not Pang Hui.

EDIT: Just to tack on an endnote the practice of exterminating 'generations' was not invented by the Han, but by the Qin that perceeded it. In specific Qin Shi Huangdi invented this form of punishment to silence dissent. It was carried over by the Han and continued to the end of the Qing.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:59 am

so were Ma Chao's wife and children (one murdered by Zhang Lu in revenge), so were Jiang Xu's family, so were Huang Zu's wife and children as well as the possible of Jiang Xia, so were the people of Xu. So were Dong Zhou's wife and children. So were those executed by the Han for the treason of someone in their family
yeah but those who killed them were people of high authority, I mean if I was a ruler and you killed innocent people, I would go "Wth is wrong with you!?".

But say you destroyed a kingdom, killed 1000 enemy soldiers for me, Ill fulfill that request.

Basically Im saying that Pang Hui killed people without telling his lord first.
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