Chen Lin's writing on Cao Cao.

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Unread postby Shi Tong » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:59 am

Legitimacy is in the eyes of the beholder and all that but at this point, I don't think Yuan was viewed any less legitimate then Cao Cao. Some of the Wei diplomats performed brilliantly to sway people over from the Yuan's. Take for example Zhang Xiu and Jia Xu, I don't either cared much about legitimacy but where they would best be served. Zhang Xiu was a skilled general and Jia Xu a skilled advisor, Cao Cao had need of any ally who would serve him now and more room for promotion whereas they might be minor in the Yuan camp

The reason people came against the Turbans I suspect is the Han was very much alive and they had jobs in the Han and it wasn't in the interests of the landed gentry for the Turbans to win. By Guan Du, most probably didn't care that much for the emperor. Yuan Shao could be seen as rescuing it from the grandson of a eunuch, Cao Cao could be seen as shielding the court from a rebelling minister.


Yep, I agree.

I cant remember the envoy sent, but he said the same thing in SGYY- "if you join Yuan Shao, he wont care about you, you'll just be another small time minister or general in a large court, whereas if you join Cao, he'll note you for your causes".

Very true. Probably why later on some people didn't join Cao, they wanted as name with a smaller group (like Zhuge Liang with Liu Bei).

And yes on the Cao/ Yuan thing too- it's clear that either side can legitimise itself in front of people, but I dont think anyone cared- it was all rhetoric to make them look legitimate for the Han when they were just out for their own selves.
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Unread postby Majesty Lu Bu » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:29 pm

It's between Yuan Shao & Cao Cao.

After several readings, I think that Yuan Shao is a loyal general to Han Dynasty.
Yes, he led his army to occupy teritory of Han Fu & Gongsun Zan, but I dont think he has that kinda ambition to seize the title "Prime Minister" of Han.
Note that Yuan Shao's family has served Han Dynasty, that Yuan Kai was an Officer with a rank above Prime Minister.

But ashame that he has lack of wisdom to lead his vast army.

On the other hand, Cao Cao was a very clever general yet ambitious. He knew well how to lead his army.

From the start, Cao Cao was an opportunist.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:43 pm

How do you explain Yuan Shu submitting himself to his brother and intending to bring him the seal, making Yuan Shao emperor then?

Surely this is a little bit naughty? :wink:
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Re: Chen Lin's writing on Cao Cao.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:26 pm

4) Chen Lin also sites a lot of points where Yuan Shao "saves" Cao Cao from his fate. I cant really recall any point in which Yuan Shao was truly Cao's saviour, but maybe I'm wrong. What of this? Did he save him at all, and why is that a valid reason to attack him?


I need to correct my answer here. Ok there was the "kind" offer of Yuan Shao taking Cao Cao in that Mengde almost accepted. However Yuan Shao did send Cao Cao reinforcements at some point after Cao Cao took a bit of a battering.
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