Who's better Sun Jian or Cao Cao?

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Who's better Sun Jian or Cao Cao?

Sun Jian
8
19%
Cao Cao
31
74%
Other (explain)
3
7%
 
Total votes : 42

Who's better Sun Jian or Cao Cao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:45 pm

Now I know this should be in the vs thread but it provoked so much debte in the perfect army thead I decided to set it up independantly so if a mod decides to lock it go for it. So who's better Sun Jian or Cao Cao?
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Unread postby Long » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:59 pm

It would depend upon the aspect you are referring to. When looked at this way, each is better than the other in different regards.

Out of the two which one would I most want to serve under. Well, I would have to say Cao Cao, due to his penchant for political reform, expansionism, and ambition. In that regard he is superior to Sun Jian.

Out of thw two which would I more like to have as a vassal under my rule. Well I would most definitely take Sun Jian by far over Cao Cao. Sun Jian was a capable commander, and his loyalty was unquestionable. These are two virtues that any ruler with any sense would seek from his subjects. So in this regard Sun Jian is superior to Cao Cao.

Men are not all created to similar callings in life, and though some may excel at certain aspects, they will be surpassed in others.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:01 pm

I won't make it specific but I'll say Sun Jians in the aspect of leading an army.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:03 pm

Long wrote:It would depend upon the aspect you are referring to. When looked at this way, each is better than the other in different regards.

Out of the two which one would I most want to serve under. Well, I would have to say Cao Cao, due to his penchant for political reform, expansionism, and ambition. In that regard he is superior to Sun Jian.

Out of thw two which would I more like to have as a vassal under my rule. Well I would most definitely take Sun Jian by far over Cao Cao. Sun Jian was a capable commander, and his loyalty was unquestionable. These are two virtues that any ruler with any sense would seek from his subjects. So in this regard Sun Jian is superior to Cao Cao.

Men are not all created to similar callings in life, and though some may excel at certain aspects, they will be surpassed in others.


Nothing more to say .A great reply from a great member . :)
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:17 pm

Bringing in from debate elsewhere

In the Qiang battle he was not routed completly .Also remember that his leader refused to follow his plan which is also thought by Dong Zhou ..


Oh, his troops weren't massacred and it wasn't his fault, didn't quite manage to organise a brilliant retreat like Dong but probably Shen's fualt that as, but it is still a defeat.

The third one was not a defeat his unit had the most fight so he was wounded .Thats is not a defeat


Sun Jian was following up a success and he had gone a long
way in advance. Then his party had the worst of it in a skirmish
near Xihua. Sun Jian was wounded and fell from his horse, and
he was lying among some bushes. The men of his command
were fled and scattered
and did not know where he was


what part isn't a defeat? The they were getting beaten anyway when Jian was wounded or the running away bit?

As an overall, Cao Cao, a great man in many spheres. As a subordinate commander, Sun Jian, as an ally then Cao Cao. As a commander, Cao Cao did conquer 2/3's of China, had that vital element of luck which Jian lacked, showed how to use men including advisor's and while he suffered a lot of reverses, he also showed a lot of victories. Sun Jian had a lot of victories and only a few defeats in his short life but can we be guaranteed he wouldn't have another?

I would give it to Cao Cao and note that Ce, who suffered one defeat, as better then both Mengde and Jian
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:20 pm

Ok Dong I'll except that comprimise and thinking about it Ce is a better commnder in my opinion to. So I'll change my post that started this how thing to reflect it :lol:.
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Unread postby Long » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I would give it to Cao Cao and note that Ce, who suffered one defeat, as better then both Mengde and Jian


Agreed. Bofu out politicked Cao Cao and Yuan Shu, and was a greater military commander than Mengde or Wentai. Superior to both.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:34 pm

Long wrote:Agreed. Bofu out politicked Cao Cao and Yuan Shu, and was a greater military commander than Mengde or Wentai. Superior to both.


Apparently the stock of Yan Baihu and others has risen tremendously in the time I have ignored most threads on this forum.



I'd choose Cao Cao, any day,any time. He commanded all his expeditions and won great victories, he was master of the north by standing on his own two feet. Sun Jian was a good commander, but his achievements can't even come close. Trying to make comparisons to bring him to a higher level than Cao Cao requires ridiculous leaps in terms of comparisons and assumptions.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:45 pm

Exar Kun said it, Cao Cao all the time!

As a subordinate I would prefer Cao Cao as well, no reason why not.

Sun Jian was good but Cao Cao just is another league .
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Unread postby Long » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:03 pm

Exar Kun wrote:Apparently the stock of Yan Baihu and others has risen tremendously in the time I have ignored most threads on this forum.


All a matter of personal opinion. Liu Yao was able to hold Yuan Shu at bay with an inferior force, and Sun Ce drove him from his city.
Yan Baihu was a rebel who maintained control of a region until Sun Ce's arrival, so he must have had some skill to hold his territory. So yeah, I'd say they're worth mention.
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