Thanks very much Sima Hui!Edit: Reopened! Take it away, Shi Tong!
As I've said to you on a different site Tongy, Lu Bu had already betrayed Liu Bei (twice) so he had it coming to him. Second the GHirdle Order wasin theory from his highest lord so he in theory coiuldn't ignore it however I gues that depends on whether you think he did it for Emperour or himself.
His first "betrayal" was of Gongsun Zan. He went to Tao Qian instead, who had offered him a higher position. Gongsun Zan was destroyed not long after. I don't know if this is a betrayal, per se, since Tao Qian was Gongsun's ally, but I will say that it's pretty telling that Liu Bei later worked with the man who had killed his former lord.
Next came Lu Bu, whom you could argue had it coming, and you could also argue that it was Zhang Fei who caused trouble, not Liu Bei. But by not punishing Zhang Fei for his actions, Liu Bei may have been endorsing them. Still, I don't see this as a betrayal.
Next came Cao Cao. Liu Bei was residing in Xu, then turned on Cao Cao after defeating Yuan Shu, killing Che Zhou. I consider this an actual betrayal because at that time, Liu Bei was serving Cao Cao, but then suddenly killed one of his governors.
Then comes Sun Quan and Liu Zhang. I'm not going to mention Jing, because that's a source of much debate,
Shi Tong wrote:Liu Zhang, I cant remember well enough what happened and will come to that when I actually re read that part.
However, from what I can remember, I felt it was Liu Bei's subordinates, especially in SGYY who took over Cheng Du, almost in the "name" of Liu Bei.
I think this is a LGZism though, and historically it was probably Liu Bei who set up the destruction of his clansman.
Is there anyone who can help elaborate on this in a historical way
Historically, Liu Bei wanted to attack Liu Zhang all along (ever since Zhuge Liang suggested the idea) but first needed build his military power in Jing and then he needed to win the hearts of people of Yi. He then waited for an opportunity. When Liu Zhang only gave him a small amount of the resources he asked for (in order to help Sun Quan) then Liu Bei could use this as justification for his subsequent betrayal. He didn't betray earlier because he would lose his reputaion for honour and thus his weight with the commoners. The historian Rafe de Crespigny explains this much better in his GOS.
Shi Tong wrote:Right, so this would pretty much be 10/10 on the betrayal scale.. which is pretty poor since it seems like Liu Bei's other betrayals are pretty small time or irrelevant.
I had a pretty strong inkling someone would say the above!
Was there any reason for Liu Bei to attack Liu Zhang? I mean, as far as I can see it's straight betrayal because:
a) he was set up by the emperor and was there in the emperor's name.
b) he was an imperial clansman with the Liu surname.
c) he was allied with Liu Bei and sent him troops (Liu Zhang was on everyone's side though, he sent Cao Cao troops during Chi Bi too!).
Liu Bei using the fact that Liu Zhang didn't send enough resources for him is pretty weak seeing as Cao Cao and lots of others would have the same reason to attack him.
Are there any legitimate reasons?
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