Cao Cao Unites China

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Would a united China under Cao Cao have been benefical?

Absolutely and a lot.
9
26%
It would have.
17
50%
Probably not.
5
15%
No!
2
6%
It would have been worse!
1
3%
 
Total votes : 34

Cao Cao Unites China

Unread postby Cao Shang » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:08 pm

Well seems like there is discussing going on in different threads, so I thought better make a own thread for it. And this should be about the longer term effect! ;)

I am certain that China would have been better of united under Cao Cao. And more than a lot to say the least...

The question is when would Cao Cao unite China.
If he had won at Chibi, it would obviously bring the most benefit...
I think the later the less beneficial effect it would have had.

Its not like Cao Cao did not have all what he wanted already when he died, the only thing he still wanted was to unite China.
I don't see him becoming a Dong Zhuo or anything similar, should he have been successfully.
There would even have been the possibility for better successors then Cao Pi and Rui. (Or worse...) :P

And the whole Jin catastrophe could have been avoided. That would have been a huge improvement for China and the Wu Hu hadn't conquered the northern areas nor held them for over 100 years...

So should have Sun Quan surrendered at Chibi? I say yes, even though he won, it did end bad for the country in the long run...
He could never hope for a victory above Wei and he should have known that long civil war is always bad in the end...

He also probably would at least have thought about attacking Taiwan and Korea, but is that a bad thing?
Infrastructure and Economy would have benefited immense by a united empire and the military would be in perfect shape thanks to all the warfare.

China just would have been more then ready to expand. Regions that where exhausted by the warfare could have rested, and still there where hundred of thousands of ready soldiers waiting to charge into battle under Cao Cao the invincible.(Thats when he had won at Chibi)

Sun Quan attacked Taiwan with a mere 10000 troops and more or less won. His troops died of illness and there wasn't any gain in the end, but Cao Cao could have very easily conquered it.

After that Korea and Japan could have been the next target.

Sun Quan wanted to attack Japan as well, but could not find it... Cao Cao had much more resources and would very likely have succeeded here too.

Or Cao Cao had just decided to develop his country further and not wage anymore war, both ways are good choices. :)
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:01 pm

What is the alternative to Cao Cao taking over all of China? Is it the 70+ years of war? Most likely, but then again Dong Zhuo would have been better for China had the other warlords not rose up to oppose him. That doesn't mean that Dong Zhuo was good for China.

Also, if we consider the alternatives not just as war but rather Sun Quan or Liu Bei running China then it becomes a more interesting subject. While I think that Shu never truely developed a good system of government there is a valid arguement for the Wu administration vs Wei.

One point though, considering the massive number of people that Cao Cao massacred or were massacred by his subordinates number greater than anyone expect perhaps Dong Zhuo. I think there could be a similiar arguement made that Cao Cao was worse for China than if he had never existed.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:27 am

As I said in a different thread, Cao was a genius administrator, so the peasants would have been fine. As for killing civilians, he only did that in revenge, so that was a one-off incident. No more killings should have occured.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:16 am

I don't see how Dong Zhuo would have had a chance to unite China, he was the one that made the chaos perfect after all.

He was a tyrant and treated his subordinates very poorly and in no way did he try to conceal that.
Even if Cao Cao hadn't started the Coalition against him, he wouldn't have ruled long.

Cao Cao didn't kill any people from Tao Qian at the beginning, only when he had to retreat and still got no revenge from Qian, he decided to plunder and take revenge on the people, Qian left undefended. :wink:

And how could have Sun Quan united China? He never had the chance to and later Wu broke down thanks to his heirs anyway.
There wouldn't have been any benefit.

Liu Bei could at least say, I am the Han! But he had no heirs either nor was he ever in the position to unite China. Even Zhuge Liang failed and he tried very hard... after his dead Shu was more or less finished.

Cao Cao had two great chances. Chibi(Win/Quan surrenders...) and had he lived only a few years longer.
Cao Pi wasn't dumb, just not as great as his father. Cao Rui wasn't a fool either, so it could have worked if they had taken over a stabilized unified china.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:54 am

Cao Shang wrote: Cao Pi wasn't dumb, just not as great as his father. Cao Rui wasn't a fool either, so it could have worked if they had taken over a stabilized unified china.
It's a pity they were all pathetic after that...
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:03 am

Cao Mao was pathetic? They were all children, they were hardly going to be the best rulers if they are a) young, b) fully under someone's control
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Unread postby takeshiniro » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:20 pm

I have to agree, things would have been pretty good, however Liu Bei would have been better and thats why he's the clear 'good guy'.

People wouldnt like sgyy so much if there weren't a good guy and bad guy, but they like it even more because both of them are clever and admirable in so many ways.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:29 pm

I think I agree with Lu Kang here.

Dong Zhuo would have been better for China had the other warlords not rose up to oppose him.


Exactly.

The civil war was what made China an awful place to live at the time, so any stop to violence is preferable to no peace.

But...

That doesn't mean that Dong Zhuo was good for China.


Exactly.

One point though, considering the massive number of people that Cao Cao massacred or were massacred by his subordinates number greater than anyone expect perhaps Dong Zhuo. I think there could be a similiar arguement made that Cao Cao was worse for China than if he had never existed.


I agree with this too..

the peasants would have been fine. As for killing civilians, he only did that in revenge, so that was a one-off incident. No more killings should have occured.


Eh? you mean, Cao Cao killed peasants, but they would be "fine" if Cao ruled China? And why does it make it ok that the killings were in revenge? Surely this makes Cao a vengeful lord, who possibly without much notice could move against the population in revenge for something and have people killed?

And how could have Sun Quan united China? He never had the chance to and later Wu broke down thanks to his heirs anyway.
There wouldn't have been any benefit.


And Wei did the same...

Just because Sun Quan's heirs lost the crown of Wu doesn't mean that Sun Quan wouldn't have been a good administrator for China, and your argument is fundamentally flawed because the Cao's lost China too.

Oh, and even after SGYY is done with, China falls back into many years of civil unrest under several different mad administrations.

he decided to plunder and take revenge on the people


What a lovely man.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:04 pm

How well it works under people like Dong Zhuo we saw.
The people even started the Yellow Turban movement to show their appreciation and support the government! :lol:
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:30 pm

I think it would of been better of without Cao Cao and if Liu Bei had unified the land...... Actually I think it would of been better if some minor warlord like Ma Teng unified it :lol: Honestly I think it would of been better if a different Warlord had won earlier but I think in the long run the Cao's were to cruerl for it to have a real positive improvement. Maybe if Sun Jian and Ce had lived longer and a different line of successers took over and ruled well......
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