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Unread postby Dennis » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:20 pm

I find it hard to hate someone I have never met, but I definately hate Dong Zhuo's conduct the most, I guess followed by Cao An,... I forgot the name... the one who fed his wife to Liu Bei in the novel. That is just a terrible thing to do!
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:57 am

Bryan wrote:Unless you list why things would have been better under Cao Cao than any of the others, you have no ground to stand on. Not only that, but saying that China would have been better under Cao Cao is mere speculation, and really, unless you have some hidden knowledge that no one else on the planet has, you can't say whether or not it would have been better unified under Cao Cao. Who's to say that he wouldn't have gone off the deep end and called for a mass culling of the peasants? Oh, that's right, you are. Forgot you knew him personally. :roll:

Chibi was a bad decision, that's true, but it was Cao Cao's bad decision. As far as easy chances go, none of them had an easy chance to unite China. Cao Cao pretty much tried, and we have facts and evidence as to how that turned out.

It's people like you that make me hate talking about history sometimes. You make statements with no proof or evidence behind them, nothing more than petulant fanboyish whimsy, really. It's almost as if I'm trying to talk about the history of this era with someone who has only played Dynasty Warriors. It's a tad bit ridiculous really, and until you do more than back up your statements, they're nothing more but boorish spittle off of the mouth of a rabid fanboy whose desire to bear Cao Cao's children is overwhelmingly driven into said fanboy's mind, and as such isn't worth the space you're wasting on the forum.

Let me make it clear that Cao Cao was one of my favorite leaders of that time. Do I wish he had united China? It would have been cool, yeah. Could I say that it would have been better under Cao Cao than any of the other warlords of the time? No, nobody can rightfully make that claim, as it didn't happen!
He's not saying that it would be better under Cao Cao rather than any of the other warlords. He's saying that it would be better than China at war. And I think your third paragraph is a bit rude.
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Unread postby Bryan » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:20 pm

Actually, in the way he's been presenting it, he is saying that it would be better under Cao Cao than any other warlord. Even though he's argued that it would be better than China at war, he's presented his position as Cao Cao being the only viable choice for uniting it.

As for my third paragraph, it may be rude, but it's how I feel about the situation, and, as such, I don't regret stating it. If you're honestly offended by it, then run it by a Moderator, who will take whatever action is deemed appropriate, if any.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:09 pm

The one point you can put in Cao Cao's favour in this discussion is that his regime was certainly closer to what it would have been like ruling China than any other.
The South was a still developing area that had only recently begun to bloom and the West was pretty country. On the other hand the North was where it was all at and he did a fine job running the North. Given that the North at the time and during the previous dynasty was essentially the backbone of the Empire you can easily say that he came the closest to running the kind of regime that would have been required by a victor. Of course he was the only one afforded the opportunity to run such a regime so take it for what you will.

And before somebody decides to go off on a tangent in the name of the South, yes we all know the South became the new backbone after the tribes took the north. We don't need reminding.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:15 pm

Just to sum it up Lord Lu Xun was quite right, my point was that the whole Civil War was very bad for China.
And in my opinion Cao Cao came closest to uniting it. Had he been the best of them all? Who knows.
But I can at least assume that he would have done a pretty good job. Better as civil war?
Hard to be worse, even a Dong Zhuo could have managed that, when he would have been able to hold the country together, which I see as pretty much impossible.

Wei was viewed as the strongest force for long.

Carrying on against a obvious stronger and superior force, only for personnel gain,
is not something to admire and surly not bringing any good to the country or people and well that was my point.

Liu Bei did it for the Han, so he says at least.
Sun Quan though? Personnel gain comes to mind.

Oh and to let you know Bryan I never played much DW.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:16 am

Bryan wrote:As for my third paragraph, it may be rude, but it's how I feel about the situation, and, as such, I don't regret stating it. If you're honestly offended by it, then run it by a Moderator, who will take whatever action is deemed appropriate, if any.
It's not directed at me, so of course I'm not offended. Cao Shang will probably be, though.

Dennis wrote:I find it hard to hate someone I have never met, but I definately hate Dong Zhuo's conduct the most, I guess followed by Cao An,... I forgot the name... the one who fed his wife to Liu Bei in the novel. That is just a terrible thing to do!
His name is Liu An, and yes, it is a terrible thing to do. And Luo Guanzhong actually makes him sound like a hero!
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:23 am

Liu Shan....why Liu Bei not appointed another son? he should see the capability. if the first son not able, he can appoint the second son as an heir.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Liu Yong, the second son, was a child at the time. Liu Shan hadn't done much wrong at the time, he was only seventeen after all and history suggests both passing over the elder and child rulers are not a good thing
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:29 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Yong, the second son, was a child at the time. Liu Shan hadn't done much wrong at the time, he was only seventeen after all and history suggests both passing over the elder and child rulers are not a good thing


Ahhhh i see, Liu Shan only 17 and Liu yong the second was a child. no wonder... :?

at the age of 17, Liu Shan easily to manipulate. i think he's to young to become an emperor. his views and minds easily influence (either good influence or bad influence).
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:18 am

Being a young emperor can be a problem yes however Liu Shan and Zhuge Liang had been running the country for a year now, I don't think age was really a problem with Shan, more his personality. In the novel, he is a gullible idiot, historically he was kind but very lazy, fond of touring places of interest and beautiful things, far too lenient and didn't take control of things when needed. His hands off style worked for 30 years but when Chen Zhi and Jiang Wei needed restraining and/or sacking, Liu Shan let them have free reign.
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