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Unread postby Cao Shang » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:21 am

The Dong Zhuo wasn't completely serious. ;)

If you don't take the deaths in consideration sure Sun Quan did not a bad job. Sadly all the people during that and later periods might have thought otherwise! :wink:

Death to the Wu Hu!
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Unread postby Bryan » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:58 pm

If you take deaths into consideration and look at it through whatever flawed prism you are looking at it through, then they all were bad for China. Especially Cao Cao.

I mean using your argument, the one stating that it was useless for anyone to try to establish themselves other than Cao Cao (which is completely full of hindsight and almost circular logic), we could argue the viewpoint for any warlord/leader. We could say that Liu Bei, being of the emperor's line, was the rightful leader and thus any of the fighting that went down was a waste because he was in the right. Hell, we could say that since the Sima clan ended up on top at the end, all of it was a waste, and they were all useless, and should have bowed down to Sima Yi as soon as he showed up.

Just come out and say that you love Cao Cao and want to have his children and leave it at that. Quit using your beliefs to argue history.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:40 pm

I hate Sun Quan because he was a treacherous bastard.
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Unread postby Skode » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:50 pm

Diao Chan, the interfering hussy :lol: . I always wondered how things would have turned out with Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu side by side for a longer period. More than likely the same conclusion but somthing a bit more legendary im sure than falling out over a mere teenage concubine.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:36 am

Exar Kun wrote:I hate Sun Quan because he was a treacherous bastard.
Almost every warlord in the era was a treacherous bastard.
Speed is the essence of war- Sun Tzu
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:51 pm

Lord Lu Xun wrote:
Exar Kun wrote:I hate Sun Quan because he was a treacherous bastard.
Almost every warlord in the era was a treacherous bastard.


Not in the ways Sun Quan was. I've spoken about it more than enough over the years.
I have my reasons. Myriads of them.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:15 pm

Bryan wrote:If you take deaths into consideration and look at it through whatever flawed prism you are looking at it through, then they all were bad for China. Especially Cao Cao.

I mean using your argument, the one stating that it was useless for anyone to try to establish themselves other than Cao Cao (which is completely full of hindsight and almost circular logic), we could argue the viewpoint for any warlord/leader. We could say that Liu Bei, being of the emperor's line, was the rightful leader and thus any of the fighting that went down was a waste because he was in the right. Hell, we could say that since the Sima clan ended up on top at the end, all of it was a waste, and they were all useless, and should have bowed down to Sima Yi as soon as he showed up.

Just come out and say that you love Cao Cao and want to have his children and leave it at that. Quit using your beliefs to argue history.


In the end they all failed. Not that some didn't have great accomplishments, but the country still broke down. Had Cao Cao united China though things could have been better. :P

Same for Liu Bei or Sun Quan, but both had no easy chance for doing so.

You could say they did the best they could.

At Chibi it was still a bad decision from Sun Quan to fight and not to surrender, if you want the best for the country. :roll:
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Unread postby Bryan » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:48 pm

Unless you list why things would have been better under Cao Cao than any of the others, you have no ground to stand on. Not only that, but saying that China would have been better under Cao Cao is mere speculation, and really, unless you have some hidden knowledge that no one else on the planet has, you can't say whether or not it would have been better unified under Cao Cao. Who's to say that he wouldn't have gone off the deep end and called for a mass culling of the peasants? Oh, that's right, you are. Forgot you knew him personally. :roll:

Chibi was a bad decision, that's true, but it was Cao Cao's bad decision. As far as easy chances go, none of them had an easy chance to unite China. Cao Cao pretty much tried, and we have facts and evidence as to how that turned out.

It's people like you that make me hate talking about history sometimes. You make statements with no proof or evidence behind them, nothing more than petulant fanboyish whimsy, really. It's almost as if I'm trying to talk about the history of this era with someone who has only played Dynasty Warriors. It's a tad bit ridiculous really, and until you do more than back up your statements, they're nothing more but boorish spittle off of the mouth of a rabid fanboy whose desire to bear Cao Cao's children is overwhelmingly driven into said fanboy's mind, and as such isn't worth the space you're wasting on the forum.

Let me make it clear that Cao Cao was one of my favorite leaders of that time. Do I wish he had united China? It would have been cool, yeah. Could I say that it would have been better under Cao Cao than any of the other warlords of the time? No, nobody can rightfully make that claim, as it didn't happen!

Mod edit (Dong): Flame Warning, please see your inbox
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Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:59 pm

After being on this forum for a while, Id say Guan Yu's the most hated person.

The last person who said he liked him got hanged, drawn and quartered...
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

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Unread postby huaxiong » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:05 pm

Dong Zhuo, then Cao Cao, then Cao Pi, and finally all the Simas.
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