Most Hated Person

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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:58 pm

Mine changes depending on circumstance, like I hated Yuan Shao for day after doing He Jin case, probably Gan Ning is my consistent dislike.

Li_Shengsun wrote:Whom i hate the most is the person who shortlived, like Pang Tong, Guan Xing, Zhang Bao etc etc. Why? bc they either don't live up on their name or doesn't contributing much to the country they lived in. Tbh, they don't worth mentioning in the history, and should be mentioned as John Doe. Or Minister A, General A etc.


That seems a little harsh. Sickness and, in Pang Tong's, death in siege isn't their fault. Some contributed greatly (Pang Tong) in brief spell, some showed talent (Guan Xing) but never got to fulfil, some didn't before they died. In terms of why they got picked for lines in history, Pang Tong was a famed officer and one valued highly in his time, Xing and Bao get added onto their father's sgz which is usual habit.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:20 am

Guan Xing had reputation. Not talent. Just saying.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:08 pm

True. I tend to assume if they had reputation, even if we know little else about them, they had talent but that was careless wording of me
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:09 pm

Generally people earn reputations during times of war. Even with the possibility of exaggeration a military officer generally has to do something in the first place.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:38 am

Not really. Liu Bei and Fa Zheng looked down on Xu Jing for his empty reputation. Guan Xing had zero recorded feats. For all we know, Zhuge Liang liked him only because of his moral character instead of ability.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:50 am

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays Han

It is true there can be PR based appointments (as in the central reason rather then part of) like Xu Jing but that is specifically noted as PR, generally I assume unless there is evidence otherwise that appointments through the ranks (or they suddenly appear) is due to a degree of merit bar the ones that seem appointed due to famed family member. It feels safer to assume that random officer 1 holding rank and such is due to the miliatry and administration bringing people through the ranks till they got to that point unless mentioned (or clear circumstances hint at) otherwise.

Using xuesangou's translation as the most modern,
Xīng appellation Ānguó. From youth he had reputation, and Chancellor Zhūgě Liàng was deeply impressed with him. When Capped he became Palace Attendant, Central Supervisor of the Army, but after several years he died
so impressed rather then liked and, as you said Han, reputation. Now I can certainly see a case for Xing's reputation being helped by who father was but that didn't happen to all the descendants of famed generals, maybe it would have turned into an empty reputation but we don't really know. He seems to have done something or had something about him when young to have impressed populace and Zhuge Liang
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:51 am

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you too brother.

Yeah... or it can also be because of his moral character.

Honestly speaking, when it comes to Guan Xing specifically, its hard to tell. Everything we discuss on why Zhuge liked him is complete conjecture because we have little information.

Personally, I lean towards moral character, Im of the reasoning that if the people liked him because of military or administrative skills, he would have been given a better military title or send to govern a region. Instead, he was given an attendant which mean advisor to the Emperor's office and Central Supervisor of the Army which job was handling the logistics and supervising? IDK. Doesnt seem like much to be honest. Of course these were the titles he was given due to his young age(the 'when capped'), its possible he died too young to be given a chance for promotion be it in the administrative or military department.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:17 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Mine changes depending on circumstance, like I hated Yuan Shao for day after doing He Jin case, probably Gan Ning is my consistent dislike.

Li_Shengsun wrote:Whom i hate the most is the person who shortlived, like Pang Tong, Guan Xing, Zhang Bao etc etc. Why? bc they either don't live up on their name or doesn't contributing much to the country they lived in. Tbh, they don't worth mentioning in the history, and should be mentioned as John Doe. Or Minister A, General A etc.


That seems a little harsh. Sickness and, in Pang Tong's, death in siege isn't their fault. Some contributed greatly (Pang Tong) in brief spell, some showed talent (Guan Xing) but never got to fulfil, some didn't before they died. In terms of why they got picked for lines in history, Pang Tong was a famed officer and one valued highly in his time, Xing and Bao get added onto their father's sgz which is usual habit.


I know, its too harsh. died of sickness or accident are common especially in times of War. I shouldn't despise them because of such circumstances. Sorry.
For me personally, i'll use anyone as long as they have uses regardless of their moral or fame. i'll discard them if they proven to be useless. i'll crush them if they shown their fang on me.
I'll even uses men like Zhang Kai, Wang Zhong or even Xiahou Mao as my vanguard and have them weaken the enemy forces before sending my strong and loyal general to finish the enemy, well as long as they get merit and reward from the effort, i doubt they going to complain. Ofcourse i'll order them to retreat if they get crushed in battle. I may be evil, but im not near that heartless to see my own follower to die in vain.

Hence the word, my top list of hated person is a person who are useless or treacherous. Shortlived are considered useless to some degree but i'll make an exception of that due to the circumstances. Treacherous is slightly less as long as they can be reason with to help me. Even Lu Bu himself still can be reason with even though i would wary of his murderous streak after he shown the intention in killing me.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:40 am

That's fair enough Han, I have nothing intelligent to add or disagree with your post and will get to the Liu bei discussion today (bar unforseen events)

I'll even uses men like Zhang Kai, Wang Zhong or even Xiahou Mao as my vanguard and have them weaken the enemy forces before sending my strong and loyal general to finish the enemy, well as long as they get merit and reward from the effort, i doubt they going to complain


In fairness, Zhang Kai may have been a skilled assassin, Wang Zhong was probably given posts (bar his local posts before the war) for bringing a thousand followers to Cao Cao and was something of a survivor given what he had to go through. Xiahou Mao... yeah best I can give him is friendship (which a ruler needs), family ties (useful for a ruler) and there wasn't complaints about his civil work (then again, good luck to the complainer on that one). So such men could serve a purpose even if miliatry affairs ill-suited both or it was a one shot achievement that they lived off on ever since. So your basic idea of trying to use all men isn't an issue, warlords had some horrible men tolerated under them due to their talents and importance to the army

Using them as vanguard would have been a bad idea for 3kingdom warfare, particularly in the early stages. Vanguard loses and the army risks complete collapse even for experienced armies like Gongsun Zan's. You need your great fighters at the front in that era

Hence the word, my top list of hated person is a person who are useless or treacherous. Shortlived are considered useless to some degree but i'll make an exception of that due to the circumstances. Treacherous is slightly less as long as they can be reason with to help me. Even Lu Bu himself still can be reason with even though i would wary of his murderous streak after he shown the intention in killing me.


I'm careful with useless personally, sometimes they get one shot in spotlight and it goes wrong and talent may have been elsewhere, some simply lack the records so one doesn't see the success if they served outside the 3 kingdoms themselves. Some people are suited to certain things (philosophy, art, scholarship politics) but not other things (miliatry skills, actual administration) that directly suits ruler, or have a crippling personality flaw.

Mercenary generals like Lu Bu, even when they were distrusted, could be of considerable use for a spell. It is a calculated gamble of the cost and risk it inevitably brings vs the benefits. I suspect a "depends on situation" is best with those.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:36 pm

It is hard for me to hate historical figures as I would just be putting a modern lens upon someone who lived in a completely different time.

If I had to express a dislike someone from the era perhaps Li Jue. He took control of the empire but didn't do anything. He defeated Lu Bu, then Ma Teng, then did nothing until things fell apart.
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