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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:49 am

Bryan wrote:But Sun Quan pretty much was Wu, historically. Or am I wrong in thinking that Sun Quan was the one that pretty much made Wu a power, not Sun Jian or Sun Ce?

If you don't say Dong Zhuo, you're wrong. End of story, neh?


Well Sun Ce had created the foundation of Wu.

But don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Sun Quan or even Sun Ce are people without any ability.
Just that both had many flaws.

Sun Quan didn't act much, but stayed on defense most of the time. That earned Wu a long period of existence, but in the end proved just to be a waste of time. And still only a bit less luck and Sun Quan would have brought disaster and destruction to Wu.

In the end everyone would have been better of if Sun Quan had listened to Zhang Zhao and not Zhou Yu and Lu Su.

But I certainly don't hate them the most or anything. ;)
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Unread postby Bryan » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 am

But didn't he stay on the "defensive" most of the time because there were several revolts, among other things? Sun Ce created the foundation... ok, then how did Wu grow? Did it's borders mysteriously generate? Or did Sun Quan have something to do with that? And how is that a waste of time? He made a mark on history. By that logic, anything that doesn't succeed, even if it brought around benefits in the meantime, was a waste of time. That's just ignorant.

Personally, I wouldn't know, I'm a Weist, through and through, but out of the three I've got a feeling that Sun Quan actually did more.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:26 am

Saying that anything that doesn't succeed is a waste of time isn't that wrong. :P
For example if one abdicate in favor of a stronger and better ruler, there most likely will be greater benefits.

Had Sun Quan surrendered Cao Cao would have united China in a few more years and how could that not have been far more beneficial to everyone, but maybe the Sun family?

And of course Sun Quan defeats Huang Zu of Liu Biao, and expand, but gives the land to Liu Bei.
Later he takes the land from Shu back again. Which isn't a smart idea if the real enemy is Wei and just benefiting from the whole thing.

Sun Quan did good things, he was good administrator and could recruit and use good officers, but as a ruler? I think he failed.
Also beginning with declaring himself emperor Sun Quan made more and more mistakes...

He would have been nice as a loyal viceroy of Wu land and who knows with a unified China Cao Cao and Sun Quan could have expanded successfully into Taiwan, Japan and maybe even further?
Alone Sun Quan failed miserably... :P
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:11 am

If Sun Quan had abdicated to Cao Cao, China certainly would be unified quicker, because the other warlords didn't stand a chance against Cao Cao. However, Quan certainly wouldn't have benefitted. All in all, Quan was a decent ruler. He had to play defensive, because when he attacked, he often lost, like he did at the battle of Hefei. Jian was heroic but a bit too reckless and died fighting Liu Biao, Ce gained the entire southland but was still reckless and was assasinated, and Qan gained Jingzhou and managed to live long and hold his ground. Overall, they're probably equal.
Speed is the essence of war- Sun Tzu
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:55 am

I don't think that Cao Cao had let Sun Quan stay in power either. :P He probably would have gotten some smaller area to govern though. Peaceful life isn't that bad, especially if you are the non militarian Sun Quan!

I think he lacked some of the recklessness of Jian and Ce that they had to much...
Sun Quan just wasn't the militarian Wu would have needed.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:38 am

If victory against Cao Cao is assured, then why give up rule of the southland for a much tinier fief? Yes, Quan wasn't quite militant enough, and a mix between him, Jian, and Ce would have been an ideal ruler. However, his defensive mesaures did extend Wu's survival and the rule of his family.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:27 am

No arguing that it was the best way for Sun family to stay in power.
But for the people and China the internal conflicts where no where near beneficial.

Now obviously Sun Quan didn't care for China nor the people, but for his personnel gain and power only.
Yet another Dong Zhuo in disguise! :wink:
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:46 pm

:roll: Dont think so....

Sun Quan constantly battled on his borders against Wei, he oversaw Chi Bi where he won and dispatched Cao Cao's army nicely, he also gained Jing Zhou from Liu Bei once Guan Yu had been taken care of.

I mean, I dont really like Sun Quan that much, but he did a great deal for Wu.

Also, what would have happened if Wei had been left over to some weak leadership (oops, actually it was, and the leader was destroyed by the Sima clan).

Fact is that Wei, Wu and Shu didn't expand that much while the 3k was in practice.

Why?

Because their abilities and defenses were pretty equal in quality.

Wu and Shu both constantly faught for their land as well as try to invade different areas near them, so militarily would you say that Shu was weak because it invaded Wei lots of times? because that's what Wu did- they were always defending the river and attacked Wei with Shu lots of times.

Put it this way, if Wu had had a successful lineage and Sun Quan's sons- grandsons were as powerful and clever as Sun Quan had been, then there would have been a chance for them to take Wei and Shu, just like Jin did.

I dont blame Sun Quan for not being able to take Wei and Shu because they were very powerful and attacking one would leave the border open for the other.

So I think Sun Quan was just as great as his father and his brother TBH.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:07 pm

How is being in civil war all the time a good thing for anyone? I don't see what he did for the people of Wu, other than bringing the misery of useless war to them and the rest of China.
Its not like Wei was the enemy of the people and wanted to harm them.

This is not about his personnel achievements or anything in that direction, but generally.

And after all the civil war ended in absolute catastrophe for China... under Jin it broke completely down and the Wu Hu conquered the North of China and held it for over 100 years...

Actually this discussing and the one about Cao Cao uniting China fit in perfectly.

That shows exactly why Civil War is always a bad thing and should be ended as soon as possible.
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:19 am

Cao Shang wrote:No arguing that it was the best way for Sun family to stay in power.
But for the people and China the internal conflicts where no where near beneficial.

Now obviously Sun Quan didn't care for China nor the people, but for his personnel gain and power only.
Yet another Dong Zhuo in disguise! :wink:
Hey, at least Sun Quan didn't depose the emperor, kill him, burn down the capital city, steal from and kill innocent people, and kill people while eating dinner. :wink: Anyway, Quan was as much of an agricultural genius as Cao Cao, so the people probably were fine under him (not counting getting killed in wars).
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