Most Hated Person

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:35 pm

Lu Xiong does not appear anywhere in the Biographical Dictionary of the Later Han to Three Kingdoms. The Romance mentions Guan Yu killing a corrupt Han official, but this is of course nowhere in the SGZ.

As far as verifiable sources go, all it mentions is Guan Yu committing some crime that made him flee to Zhou county and change his name.

Han wrote:
But I dont believe that doing good things "overcome" bad things.


As for this, the entire point of a prison system is to rehabilitate someone who did an act of wrong doing, so they can reenter society and atone for their misdeeds.
"I take Heaven and Earth to be my dwelling, and my rooms are my coat and pants; so what are you gentlemen doing in my pants?"
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Student
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:16 pm

If you murder someone out of temper because you feel insulted then no. You do not deserve to be forgived.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Sage
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:59 pm

Sorry, really thought I had responded to this.


But the fact that he was repeatedly able to survive such huge odds against him again and again gives more legitimacy for his valour and martial prowess. In fact, thats probably why the nomads respected him. I cant recall him getting sacked though. In fact, I recall he was promoted after a huge defeat.



It was an offensive camapign so land was not going to be lost bar any counterattack brought on by the sheer scale of Zan's defeat. Rafe's tome notes Zan was sacked for one heavy loss pre 187

Sure, I'm not questioning Zan's bravery and strength in battle. I'm questioning his ability to win battles as a general

I meant it was written, but not commented on.


True
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15509
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:03 pm

But martial prowess and generalship arent mutually exclusive. Pan Zhang and Ding Feng comes to mind.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Sage
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:58 am

Han wrote:But martial prowess and generalship arent mutually exclusive. Pan Zhang and Ding Feng comes to mind.


Sure, I'm not trying to say that. One can be a very good warrior and a very good general but while Gongsun Zan is clearly a skilled and brave warrior but his record as a general is questionable.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15509
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:04 pm

It is questionable but isn't that also due to the fact that we don't have details for most of the battles? We don't know the numbers of his opponents, nor the battlefield conditions. The fact that he could take huge loses and still the tribes respected him could imply that most people might have completely lost, though that is pure conjecture.

Though I am a bit bias I admit. Despite finding out that Gongsun Zan was a terrible person I still like him. I guess it can before tough to give up ingrained biases
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:47 pm

I dont even like Gongsun Zan.

Its just that when it comes to recording antiquity history, reputation - judgement of contemporaries - should be held in higher esteem then recrded win - lose record.

For example, Chunyu Qiong, Yan Liang and Wen Chou only records are losing to Cao Cao.

Yet Cao Cao praise the former as a 'great general of Yuan Shao' and the reputation of the latter two was that even many generals of Cao Wei were wary of them and their deaths had a notable negative effect on morale.

So do they suck because they had lousy records or maybe because their exploits were not carefully recorded?

Heck, look at Guan Yu. His SanGuoZhi skips the entirety of his early career to Cao Cao second Xu invasion. Yet we are told Liu Bei performed so highly that he had reputation among the north eastern warlords and was highly promoted. So then the question is did Guan( and Zhang) perform bad or great during these times. If Guan Yu had performed badly, why would the likes of Cao Cao, Cheng Yu, Lü Meng, Sun Quan, Lu Xun, Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Zhuge Liang hold him in such high esteem? Not just his 'martial prowess' and 'geographical' advantages but even his 'reputation', 'military affairs' and 'ability'.

Heck even post GuanDu Guan Yu participation in Liu Bei Bowang victory and Chibi campaign is unknown.

Etc etc.

The same applies to Zhuge Liang and the others. Etc etc.

Im not dissing on the Chinese historians or anybody. Im just making a case that one should not look into only the pure win - loss record, and to have a better perspective, taking into consideration the difficulties of recording history.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Sage
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:54 pm

Gongsun Zan had a reputation for courage and warrior skill, I don't question that. As a general though? That isn't something I have seen him greatly admired for. I actually think Zan is more intelligent then usually given credit for to be fair to him and I see where some of the ruler issue he had came from.

Guan Yu has most of his career missing, some of the others you list Han have one or two battles recorded (usually their defeat). Zan has a ton of battles and camapigns recorded, he isn't a "ok he reached this rank/reputation but we will only see a few battles", we get a good list. If we can't make a judgement of his abilities given the amount of what we know of his miliatry career then who in the 3kingdoms can we judge a record on? If the answer is nobody then fair enough

I see his record against the Xianbi (through Rafe's tome so not as ideal as something like the ZZTJ on that one), against mutineers, against Zhang Chun and co, a Turban group, against Liu Yu, against Yuan Shao (and Yuan officers) which is not something we get for Guan Yu or the Yuan officers mentioned. I see his contemperies like Dong or those before like Huangfu Gui, Duan Jiong, I can compare and contrast, he does not come off well. Now if we aren't judging anyone, that is fair enough, but I don't think we can compare the poor records of some generals get to what we have on Gongsun Zan
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15509
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:27 pm

Gongsun Zan had a reputation for courage and warrior skill, I don't question that. As a general though? That isn't something I have seen him greatly admired for. I actually think Zan is more intelligent then usually given credit for to be fair to him and I see where some of the ruler issue he had came from.

Guan Yu has most of his career missing, some of the others you list Han have one or two battles recorded (usually their defeat). Zan has a ton of battles and camapigns recorded, he isn't a "ok he reached this rank/reputation but we will only see a few battles", we get a good list. If we can't make a judgement of his abilities given the amount of what we know of his miliatry career then who in the 3kingdoms can we judge a record on? If the answer is nobody then fair enough

I see his record against the Xianbi (through Rafe's tome so not as ideal as something like the ZZTJ on that one), against mutineers, against Zhang Chun and co, a Turban group, against Liu Yu, against Yuan Shao (and Yuan officers) which is not something we get for Guan Yu or the Yuan officers mentioned. I see his contemperies like Dong or those before like Huangfu Gui, Duan Jiong, I can compare and contrast, he does not come off well. Now if we aren't judging anyone, that is fair enough, but I don't think we can compare the poor records of some generals get to what we have on Gongsun Zan


Again, generalship and martial prowess arent mutually exclusive.

Im basing off Sun Fin bio. Gongsun Zan only defeats were when he was outnumbered against the nomads, and Yuan Shao twice. He made up for the former loss by gaining Qing. So only one loss that you can really pin on him.

Serious question who else other than Gongsun Zan had a better reputation among the nomads? If there were, its probably, like, less than 5 or so.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Sage
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:09 am

Again, I didn't say they were. They also aren't the same thing, one can have a reputation for one and not for the other

The defeats I have are 1) Xianbi when Zan attacked in an against the odds situation when he didn't have to and lost so heavily he got sacked, 2) Zan pursuing the defeat Zhang Chun forces deep into Wuhuan heartlands without seeking reinforcements, gets besieged by Qiuliju and ZZTJ makes special note of the scale of his defeat being that horrible 3) Jie bridge, 4) final siege battles

They don't rank the reputations (Dong had one, Duan Jiong, Huangfu Gui but strangely not his nephew Song) in an order, Zan's is though noted towards his courage and warrior. Not so much being a good general
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15509
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved