Most Hated Person

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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:47 pm

Han wrote:
An anon doubted Gan Ning's actual crimes, which got into discussion, which all parties agreed, that Gan Ning was a pile of trash. It wasn't too much of a discussion more so "It was said here (links it)".
https://daolunofshiji.tumblr.com/post/1 ... that-whole


I meant on steam. But thanks for the link anyway. Side note, I did not know Dong Zhou had his own tumblr lmfao. Nice to see him defending Guan Yu unlike the rest of you all. :wink:


Oooh, my mistake on that one. I'd actually like the see the steam one too. These conversations always fascinate me. I always want to know someones reasoning for thinking the way the do other than the "fake news" gimmick. Oh everyone went about defending Guan Yu yesterday, which hurt my feelings. :'( I'll keep on attack till my dying breath! ...And creating a blue print for a 191 foot tall Lu Meng statue to be construction right in front of his 190 foot tall one. :D
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Lü Meng was great no question right third only to Cao Cao and Deng Ai as a general in my opinion.

But in terms of martial prowess, other than Zhang Liao at Hefei and Cao Ren at Nanjun, I cant think of any other that matched Guan Yu at Baima.

In terms of reputation, other than Zhang Liao baby crying and Lü Bu Red Hare among horses, I cant think of any other that was so high in honour to be praised by Cheng Yu, Zhou Yu and respected by Lü Meng, Cao Cao and Liu Bei while ranking ahead of Zhang, Ma and Huang.

Saying Guan Yu is overrated is fine, but him being a footnote or npc is extremely dumb and straight up baseless.

:D

Just my two cents.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:47 pm

Overexaggeration on my part, simply because I am sick to death of talking about or reading about the man. Much like Lu Bu, he's not someone I care for. The man's got an almost 200 foot tall statue, yet Deng Ai has ding dong-diddly nothing. Bugs me greatly. I say the more "extremely dumb" things as a retaliation basically. It's wrong to do, but I do it simply because I'd prefer folks left me out of any Guan Yu talks. Also for trolling :D It's fun making people mad. I did it for Ding Yuan, who apparently has a large fan base... for some reason.

Also, back on topic. You know who I really hate but he never gets brought up enough? Sun Chen. The man beat Zhu Yi to death for simply being right about the Wei army being too strong for them to defeat.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 pm

I worry this has been oversold but here and page 6

It isn't a major discussion, it is polite and short, it only stuck in mind as Han+Daolun+steam meant it more combined into Gan Ning amazingly gets away it reputation wise
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:46 pm

Overexaggeration on my part, simply because I am sick to death of talking about or reading about the man. Much like Lu Bu, he's not someone I care for. The man's got an almost 200 foot tall statue, yet Deng Ai has ding dong-diddly nothing. Bugs me greatly. I say the more "extremely dumb" things as a retaliation basically. It's wrong to do, but I do it simply because I'd prefer folks left me out of any Guan Yu talks. Also for trolling :D It's fun making people mad. I did it for Ding Yuan, who apparently has a large fan base... for some reason.

Also, back on topic. You know who I really hate but he never gets brought up enough? Sun Chen. The man beat Zhu Yi to death for simply being right about the Wei army being too strong for them to defeat.


Obviously. But its important to note that the people in Asia seems to venerate Guan Yu, not for his generalship but his loyalty and righteousness towards Liu Bei and when promising Cao Cao to repay his debts before leaving. Furthermore, Cao Cao and historian Pei Song Zhi respected Guan Yu character while Guan Yu himself was noted to be friends with Zhang Liao and Xu Huang, men of incredible character.

I worry this has been oversold but here and page 6

It isn't a major discussion, it is polite and short, it only stuck in mind as Han+Daolun+steam meant it more combined into Gan Ning amazingly gets away it reputation wise


I see.

Thanks for the source plus link regardless.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:52 pm

Also, back on topic. You know who I really hate but he never gets brought up enough? Sun Chen. The man beat Zhu Yi to death for simply being right about the Wei army being too strong for them to defeat.


I think people don't know enough about the era. I have read the ZZTJ but with some of the latter Wu figures like that, I feel I don't quite have a grip on them

I also get the two Sun regents mixed up :oops:

Han wrote:Sun Fin made one which I used as my main source.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23873


Not quite what I was looking for but useful, thank you Han. Also thank you Sun Fin for the link


Sun Hao was definitely hit with that. No question. Does not however change the fact that he was a huge monster and arse regardless.


The thing is, how am I supposed to tell which bits are actually he was a monster and which bits are tropes? I can judge on his paranoia becuase of Jin's comments about the state of Wu


Yeah just to ensure that theres no misunderstanding, Im just trying to offer a different perspective to this anti- Gan Ning thing. Not trying to defend him at all.


Sure, I understand that and you do make some very good points

That isnt what I was trying to say. I was trying to imply that Liu Yu should get a share of the blame. A small share only but still a share nevertheless. Fair enough, I feel like GongSun Zan plan to attack the nomads were not that bad. The nomads were after all guilty of hurting innocent civillians for the past decade or so and taking advantage of the turmoil in the Han Dynasty lands. Dont get me wrong, Liu Yu plan to pursue peace was great... but only because it worked out much better than expected.


Fair enough. The problem with Zan's plan is it comes across as his seeking revenge for recent humiliation (he had lost 60% of his army) and was noted to resent Liu Yu for the plan.

2) Which is a sound defensive strategy? Keeping yourself hidden while getting your surbodinates to fight was a common strategy. Also, GongSun Zan was on a losing streak at the time and was thus understandably afraid which made him resort to this strategy of pure hiding. Cheng Yu also tried to convinced Cao Cao to do the same at GuanDu instead of trying to rescue him. Liu Biao and Huang Zu did the same against the Suns bar the occasional raids. Liu Zhang against Liu Bei when he station his various surbodinates outside and remained hidden inside with his civil ministers. Wang Yun tried it with the Dong remenants. Tao Qian did it against Cao Cao massacres. Yuan Shu did it against Lü Bu pillage and plunder. Etc Etc. That was also why Cao Cao was happy that the Liang Warlords came to openly rebel and gather against him instead of remain hiding inside their fortresses, castles and territories and wait it out like GongSun Zan tried to do.


but Cao Cao offered to Cheng Yu so Cheng Yu had no reason to feel abandoned. Viceroy's or leading generals on the border are different from leaving your garrisons without aid. It feels like you mixing delegation ala "my generals, here the troops you need, go fight" and that they got reinforced with Zan's actions There may also be that Zan is a miliatry guy whereas Zhang/Biao aren't so weren't expected to fight but Zan didn't have to go himself to aid the garrisons. Zan was asked to send help, he refused and his front line garrisons felt abandoned, I struggle to think of another case where garrison after garrison gives up becuase they feel let down

I don't think "I'm taking a beating in open battle, time to turtle" is a bad strategy, Zan seems better at fortress defending then open battle, he had a strong fortress and it was fair to question how easily Yuan Shao could supply a long siege. Just not leave his men to be killed, either pull them out or reinforce

3 is fair enough

4) This is fair. Cao Cao at Xu when " hundred of thousands" is said to flock to Liu Bei rebellion at Xu comes to mind. Numerous fortresses rebelled at Qing after Yuan Shao heavy defeat when he retreated north. But its important to note that GongSun Zan at that point of time was also dealing with two invasions plus the discontent. It was not just solely him that drove them to revolt. The two invasions definitely played a role too. Im sure if someone had invaded Yuan Shu when there was his famine thing, many would also take the opportunity to revolt too, instead of just abandoning him.


Oh yes certainly the invasion and Yuan Shao's clever use of Liu Yu's men including his son played it's part (as did Zan losing indicating a chance) but when that chance came, the people flipped over to Liu Yu's remnants and Yuan Shao very quickly.

5) Sun Fin bio doesnt take any note of massacres but simply: Zan fearing the end locked himself up in his huge fortress at Yijing. Zan shut himself off from the world with all his messages coming via his concubines. He knew he couldn’t defeat the rebels but he also thought his fortress impregnable with enough grain supplies to tide him through until the Han court regained control and could sort the rebellion out for him. Perhaps his largest mistake was that those troops who were outside the fortress were left to fend for themselves. So instead of fighting many killed their generals and surrendered. The rest with no strong leadership were defeated soundly.(43)


It's earlier, pre Liu Yu under It appears that with just his own initial 3,000 man cavalry force made up of Wuhuan who stayed loyal Gongsun Zan continued to advance. However he pursued them too far and was surrounded in a fort in Liaoxi. Meng Yi subsequently disappears from history and it would seem possible that he was also under attack during this time and died.(6)

After about 200 days Zan was able to escape however he suffered heavy losses (thought to be between 50-60% of his force(7) in the process. Despite this he was promoted to Colonel, had his command increased to 10,000 men and was made Marquis. His reputation amongst the Wuhuan tribes for bravery ferocity was enhanced by these events.(8)


Sorry I think we talked at crossed wires with 5.


1) Exactly. Talent is highly valued in comparison to morals in times of chaos. A theme in ROTK. At theme common in history. A theme common even now.

Sure.

Hypothetically speaking, if you are a civillian in TK China. You wouldnt really care whether you are getting killed in a military pillage or in an unusual circumstances or in normal life would you? All you know is that you are getting killed. Im not excusing or saying ' dont complain' Im just pointing out the nature of a deadly Civil War where cannabilism, famine, massacres, pillages, plunders are usually glossed over so quickly unless they were related to something of importance like tuntian. Thus, getting upset over an innocent civllian dying seemed silly, at least to me. Furthermore, the 3K China was an era of rampant warfare, skirmish, raids and straight up atrocities. Generals are constantly described to be brave, honorable and virtuous yet also very independent, reckless and arrogant with some even being noted to be rough and bloodthirsty. So the chances of a General murdering an innocent in daily life was much higher than a General not murdering an innocent in daily life, unless said General is noted to be extrenely honorable and kindhearted. Heck even then... Xiahou Dun, Ling Tong and other men of honor are noted to have killed a civillian at one point in time or another. Plus theres also the fact that people in antiquity live in a different set of moral values compared to us in the 21st Century.

So its not me arguing that murder outside the battle was normal and should be looked with an eye close or anything like that. But more of be understanding about the past and not try to forcibliy impose our moral values.


Sure. "Everyone is equal in the rule of law" but insert your own example here. The Cao Hong's, Fa Zheng's and the three Wusers were valuable and indulged in ways others wouldn't be.

If I'm a civilian going to be stabbed in same manner, your right "cuaght up in a battle" or murder isn't going to make much different to me or my family I agree. However even in civil wars like the 3kingdoms, there is a line drawn between "the unfortunate impact of war" and murder. There will be more freedom to murder and so on given by rulers but it wasn't something the sgz looks kindly on from the individuals

I don't think the sgz and so on reads approvingly on multiple murders so I don't think it is modern morality. Where I would agree with you is the "why Gan Ning and not"
Lü Meng, Cao Ren, Ling Tong, Guan Yu, Xiahou Dun, Zhang Fei, Cao Cao, Pan Zhang, Cao Hong and plenty plenty more killed a civillian or even pillage/plunder/massacre at some point in time outside their duty for their own benefit( temper, wealth, vengeance etc etc) go after them too.
is a fair point.

I don't recall the Guan Yu murder off the top of my head. I dislike Ling Tong, Pan Zhang and Cao Hong, with "killed once while young" I'm willing to let that go under the times they were in and rehabilitation. Some of it is also bias and the moment when one asks "who is the most disliked" (or it's opposite), that will come into play. Or a most evil list I'm afraid. Your right to point out double standards

No. Im talking about extravagence during famine.

RDC To Establish Peace Part 6 of Part 1:

After Yuan Shu named himself emperor, he acted most extra-vagantly His concubines and attendants were numbered by the hundreds, and they swathed themselves in silk and stuffed themselves with millet and meat. The poor people were hungry and distressed, but he had pity for none of them. Then his treasury was empty and he could no longer hold his position. Burning his palace buildings, he fled to his followers Chen Jian and Lei Bo in the Qian hills, but they turned him away.


That's a fair charge given the "no pity" line
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:14 am

Not quite what I was looking for but useful, thank you Han. Also thank you Sun Fin for the link


Sure.

The thing is, how am I supposed to tell which bits are actually he was a monster and which bits are tropes? I can judge on his paranoia becuase of Jin's comments about the state of Wu


Agreed.

Sure, I understand that and you do make some very good points


Right.

Fair enough. The problem with Zan's plan is it comes across as his seeking revenge for recent humiliation (he had lost 60% of his army) and was noted to resent Liu Yu for the plan.


Agreed. And GongSun Zan should have shut up after it was clear that Liu Yu plan worked out extremely well.

but Cao Cao offered to Cheng Yu so Cheng Yu had no reason to feel abandoned. Viceroy's or leading generals on the border are different from leaving your garrisons without aid. It feels like you mixing delegation ala "my generals, here the troops you need, go fight" and that they got reinforced with Zan's actions There may also be that Zan is a miliatry guy whereas Zhang/Biao aren't so weren't expected to fight but Zan didn't have to go himself to aid the garrisons. Zan was asked to send help, he refused and his front line garrisons felt abandoned, I struggle to think of another case where garrison after garrison gives up becuase they feel let down

I don't think "I'm taking a beating in open battle, time to turtle" is a bad strategy, Zan seems better at fortress defending then open battle, he had a strong fortress and it was fair to question how easily Yuan Shao could supply a long siege. Just not leave his men to be killed, either pull them out or reinforce

3 is fair enough


Sun Fin biography does not mention of GongSun Zan being asked for helped or reinforcement. In fact it implies the opposite with the soldiers mutinying, killing their higher ups and defecting.

Fair enough. GongSun Zan should not have allowed himself to be overwhelmed with paranoia that easily.

Sure.

Oh yes certainly the invasion and Yuan Shao's clever use of Liu Yu's men including his son played it's part (as did Zan losing indicating a chance) but when that chance came, the people flipped over to Liu Yu's remnants and Yuan Shao very quickly.


Yep.

It's earlier, pre Liu Yu under It appears that with just his own initial 3,000 man cavalry force made up of Wuhuan who stayed loyal Gongsun Zan continued to advance. However he pursued them too far and was surrounded in a fort in Liaoxi. Meng Yi subsequently disappears from history and it would seem possible that he was also under attack during this time and died.(6)

After about 200 days Zan was able to escape however he suffered heavy losses (thought to be between 50-60% of his force(7) in the process. Despite this he was promoted to Colonel, had his command increased to 10,000 men and was made Marquis. His reputation amongst the Wuhuan tribes for bravery ferocity was enhanced by these events.(8)

Sorry I think we talked at crossed wires with 5.


Hmm. Then I dont think is fair to blame GongSun Zan for this. Losing was common all time and every general lost at some point in their careers. And if GongSun Zan was really incompetent as you mention, I feel that the nomads would not fear him. I feel the hotheaded and lacking in foresight would be better words to describe GongSun Zan critical loss.

Sure. "Everyone is equal in the rule of law" but insert your own example here. The Cao Hong's, Fa Zheng's and the three Wusers were valuable and indulged in ways others wouldn't be.

If I'm a civilian going to be stabbed in same manner, your right "cuaght up in a battle" or murder isn't going to make much different to me or my family I agree. However even in civil wars like the 3kingdoms, there is a line drawn between "the unfortunate impact of war" and murder. There will be more freedom to murder and so on given by rulers but it wasn't something the sgz looks kindly on from the individuals

I don't think the sgz and so on reads approvingly on multiple murders so I don't think it is modern morality. Where I would agree with you is the "why Gan Ning and not"


Agreed.

Fair enough. But the SGZ seldom comment in the first place unless it was an action by rulers or notable/impactful. But u are right, when the historians or notable gentries of that time comment, its usually from a negative viewpoint.

is a fair point.

I don't recall the Guan Yu murder off the top of my head. I dislike Ling Tong, Pan Zhang and Cao Hong, with "killed once while young" I'm willing to let that go under the times they were in and rehabilitation. Some of it is also bias and the moment when one asks "who is the most disliked" (or it's opposite), that will come into play. Or a most evil list I'm afraid. Your right to point out double standards


It is.

SGZ:

Guan Yu, styled Yunchang (originally Changsheng), was a Xie native from Hedong, and was once a fugitive on the run in the Zhuo commandery.

Im not that willing compared to you. Killing because of temper is always wrong regardless of age. Heck, killing regardless of reason should always be taken negatively.

That's a fair charge given the "no pity" line


Exactly.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:29 pm

Agreed. And GongSun Zan should have shut up after it was clear that Liu Yu plan worked out extremely well.


agreed

Sun Fin biography does not mention of GongSun Zan being asked for helped or reinforcement. In fact it implies the opposite with the soldiers mutinying, killing their higher ups and defecting.

Fair enough. GongSun Zan should not have allowed himself to be overwhelmed with paranoia that easily.

Sure.


ZZTJ has more detail
Yuan Shao now brought a great army against Gongsun Zan. Before this, the commander of one of Gongsun Zan's outlying forts had been besieged by enemies, but Gongsun Zan sent no relief. He said, "If I send aid to one,
then my officers will always expect support and will be less committed to fight" When Yuan Shao came to attack, the various camps on Gongsun Zan's southern borders realised they were too weak to defend themselves against him, and they knew there was no chance of relief. Some surrendered, others ran away, and Yuan Shao's army came straight to the gates [of Yi fortress].


Yeah it is the paranoia rather then the turtling that is the issue

Hmm. Then I dont think is fair to blame GongSun Zan for this. Losing was common all time and every general lost at some point in their careers. And if GongSun Zan was really incompetent as you mention, I feel that the nomads would not fear him. I feel the hotheaded and lacking in foresight would be better words to describe GongSun Zan critical loss.


The sheer scale of the defeat on the other hand seems quite unusual.

When I look over the ZTTJ and Rafe's tome, that camapign sums him up for me. He destroyed the Zhang Chun invasion, sent the tribes into retreat... then goes and gets a massive massive defeat. Zan did have victories but he also had a tednency for high casualties and getting whooped, when I look at other border generals like Dong or earlier figures like Duan Jiong and Huangfu Gui, Zan's record is poor in comparison. He clearly made an impact both with his horsebows and his own bravery in battle, his willingness to launch suicidal attack at one point saw intresting contrast of intimidating raiders and getting sacked for being bloody stupid by the Han after the heavy losses

Agreed.

Fair enough. But the SGZ seldom comment in the first place unless it was an action by rulers or notable/impactful. But u are right, when the historians or notable gentries of that time comment, its usually from a negative viewpoint.


To be fair, when there are good records, murder does seem to get mentioned enough times that I'm not sure it gets hidden or forgotten.

t is.

SGZ:

Guan Yu, styled Yunchang (originally Changsheng), was a Xie native from Hedong, and was once a fugitive on the run in the Zhuo commandery.

Im not that willing compared to you. Killing because of temper is always wrong regardless of age. Heck, killing regardless of reason should always be taken negatively.


Fugitive could be for anything though.

It should indeed be taken negatively and it is a black mark on them even with the time period they were in where "adventuring" and so on had become a thing. However I'm willing to also believe that someone then did a lot of good afterwards goes some way to overcome a youngster doing something very bad. I would be rather happier if they had faced punishment and then did the good things though
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 am

ZZTJ has more detail
Yuan Shao now brought a great army against Gongsun Zan. Before this, the commander of one of Gongsun Zan's outlying forts had been besieged by enemies, but Gongsun Zan sent no relief. He said, "If I send aid to one,
then my officers will always expect support and will be less committed to fight" When Yuan Shao came to attack, the various camps on Gongsun Zan's southern borders realised they were too weak to defend themselves against him, and they knew there was no chance of relief. Some surrendered, others ran away, and Yuan Shao's army came straight to the gates [of Yi fortress].


Yeah it is the paranoia rather then the turtling that is the issue


Ah... that. Yes, now I remember. Lmfaooo.

Yep.

The sheer scale of the defeat on the other hand seems quite unusual.

When I look over the ZTTJ and Rafe's tome, that camapign sums him up for me. He destroyed the Zhang Chun invasion, sent the tribes into retreat... then goes and gets a massive massive defeat. Zan did have victories but he also had a tednency for high casualties and getting whooped, when I look at other border generals like Dong or earlier figures like Duan Jiong and Huangfu Gui, Zan's record is poor in comparison. He clearly made an impact both with his horsebows and his own bravery in battle, his willingness to launch suicidal attack at one point saw intresting contrast of intimidating raiders and getting sacked for being bloody stupid by the Han after the heavy losses


Lives were lost, but no territory was captured.

But the fact that he was repeatedly able to survive such huge odds against him again and again gives more legitimacy for his valour and martial prowess. In fact, thats probably why the nomads respected him. I cant recall him getting sacked though. In fact, I recall he was promoted after a huge defeat.

To be fair, when there are good records, murder does seem to get mentioned enough times that I'm not sure it gets hidden or forgotten.


I meant it was written, but not commented on.

Fugitive could be for anything though.

It should indeed be taken negatively and it is a black mark on them even with the time period they were in where "adventuring" and so on had become a thing. However I'm willing to also believe that someone then did a lot of good afterwards goes some way to overcome a youngster doing something very bad. I would be rather happier if they had faced punishment and then did the good things though


Right. I took things out of context and slandered :wink: Guan Yu wrongly. Apologies.

But I dont believe that doing good things "overcome" bad things. Agree with the rest though.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:20 am

As the person who brought up the Guan Yu murder thing, I felt like I needed to check up on this. Some source claims that he killed a local bully named Lu Xiong, and while it was basically "justified", he still became a fugitive in the process. I can't really link or anything as I am on mobile but a google search will reveal the fairly shaky sources for this. I had felt like it was common knowledge so maybe it was a line in the novel? I am not sure.

Han wrote:But I dont believe that doing good things "overcome" bad things.


So essentially if someone commits a crime at a young age, you think that should haunt them indefinitely? No chance for reform? That sounds harsh and a bit idealistic to me...the whole point behind raising how the civil war led to people doing bad stuff is to demonstrate how their crimes, within reason of course, can be forgiven in the court of hindsight
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