Most Hated Person

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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Again, I didn't say they were. They also aren't the same thing, one can have a reputation for one and not for the other

The defeats I have are 1) Xianbi when Zan attacked in an against the odds situation when he didn't have to and lost so heavily he got sacked, 2) Zan pursuing the defeat Zhang Chun forces deep into Wuhuan heartlands without seeking reinforcements, gets besieged by Qiuliju and ZZTJ makes special note of the scale of his defeat being that horrible 3) Jie bridge, 4) final siege battles

They don't rank the reputations (Dong had one, Duan Jiong, Huangfu Gui but strangely not his nephew Song) in an order, Zan's is though noted towards his courage and warrior. Not so much being a good general


Fair enough. But the former occasionally results in the latter. Killing as much as possible( martial prowess) occasionally results in victories( generalship)

These 4 yes. Except that I had a brainfart and misread number 2. Take note that all except number 3 came while he was heavily outnumbered. And after number 3, he annexed Qing which resulted in a stalemate for some time.

Were the reputations of the people that you mentioned were among the nomads or the Chinese? Gongsun Zan was feared by the nomads.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:42 pm

I see generalship as ability to lead men into battle and, as it were, read the battlefield. There can be nowadays a sort of sneering "only warriors" and I'm not trying to do that but it is distinct.

I came across Zan's sgz today at xuesangou here. Here is what it says about the Xianbi raid which puts it in a lot more positive light (though at first glance, it skips the Wuhuan thrashing)

Zàn was nominated Filial and Incorrupt and became a [Palace] Gentleman, and was sent out as Chief Clerk of Liáodōng Dependent State. Once he went with several tens of cavalry to patrol Sāi, and encountered several hundred Xiānbēi riders. Zàn therefore retreated to an empty precinct, and said to his following cavalry: “Now if we do not charge through them, then we will all be killed.” Zàn then himself grasped a lance, attached a blade on both ends, and charged and stabbed through the barbarians, killing and wounding several tens, but also losing half his riders, and so they escaped. The Xiānbēi were intimidated and afterward did not dare again enter Sāi. He was promoted to Magistrate of Zhuō.


The Rafe tome says Zan was sacked so some confusion there. However assuming there isn't a "another version" of this, I retract my criticism for this battle. Zan was put in a desperation situation and saved as many lives as he could with heroic fighting on his part.

The wuhuan camapign he has nobody to blame but himself for the defeat. He went too aggressive and left himself isolated deep in enemy terrain against superior numbers

And after number 3, he annexed Qing which resulted in a stalemate for some time.


Wasn't that Tian Kai?

Were the reputations of the people that you mentioned were among the nomads or the Chinese? Gongsun Zan was feared by the nomads.


Dong had more rep among nomads, the two pre era generals were for both, Song had high rep in China (even a song about him after Turbans) but not the Qiang.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:40 pm

I see generalship as ability to lead men into battle and, as it were, read the battlefield. There can be nowadays a sort of sneering "only warriors" and I'm not trying to do that but it is distinct.

I came across Zan's sgz today at xuesangou here. Here is what it says about the Xianbi raid which puts it in a lot more positive light (though at first glance, it skips the Wuhuan thrashing)


Isnt read the battlefield very... vague? Regardless, I see generalship as winning at all costs. Be it by intellligence, cunning, tactics or martial prowess.

Guan Yu slay Baima, Pan Zhang and Ding Feng careers. Etc etc.

Thanks!


The Rafe tome says Zan was sacked so some confusion there. However assuming there isn't a "another version" of this, I retract my criticism for this battle. Zan was put in a desperation situation and saved as many lives as he could with heroic fighting on his part.

The wuhuan camapign he has nobody to blame but himself for the defeat. He went too aggressive and left himself isolated deep in enemy terrain against superior numbers


Sure.

Agreed.

Wasn't that Tian Kai?


Sun Fin bio has

It appears that following the victory Yuan Shao attempted to advance further in to Gongsun Zan’s territory led by Cui Juye.(27) However Zan caught the army at Juma River and defeated the Cui Juye. Having regained the impetus in the struggle it was Gongsun Zan’s turn to drive in to Shao’s territory. Taking 30,000 men Zan attacked deep in to the south of Jizhou, getting as far as Pingyuan in Qingzhou where Gongsun Zan announced Tian Kai Inspector of Qingzhou. This opened a second front in the war between the two forces. Over the next year both sides took heavy loses as battles raged.(28)


Dong had more rep among nomads, the two pre era generals were for both, Song had high rep in China (even a song about him after Turbans) but not the Qiang.


Dong had more rep than Gongsun? You sure?
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:51 am

Sorry for my delay in responding. I might have become a tad obsessed with the new mobile 3K game… :oops:

Han wrote:Lmfao. Cao Cao could cure aids for all I care. His massacres of Xu was straight up horrifying. His pillages and plunders throughout the Central Plains and Huainan is unmatched. Just because he did good doesnt automatically mean he cancel out the bad.I prefer Gan Ning to Xiahou AhMan in terms of who caused less suffering.

Just remember, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Winstion Churchill were all villainous heroes or heroic villains - however you want to spin it - causing atrocities on millions. Just because they contributed to their country does not excuse said atrocities or " balance it out". Especially not in an era which seen much suffering already.


I agree, I’m not justifying Cao Cao’s actions, they were despicable. But subjectively, when compared to Gan Ning I dislike Cao Cao less because I can see he made positive contributions to society.

Han wrote:Lü Meng, Cao Ren, Ling Tong, Guan Yu, Xiahou Dun, Zhang Fei, Cao Cao, Pan Zhang, Cao Hong and plenty plenty more killed a civillian or even pillage/plunder/massacre at some point in time outside their duty for their own benefit( temper, wealth, vengeance etc etc) go after them too.


You missed my second point. I said even worse than killing for material gain, anger etc, is killing just for the thrills, which is how I see Gan Ning’s behavior. All is awful, I don’t condone murder whatsoever but in my opinion Gan Ning’s is worse because he murdered without provocation, without a desire to do anything other than murder.

Han wrote:Yeah thats what pillage mean. Something... you know... Cao Cao was notorious for... ... ... Extravegance... something that was considered normal in antiquity among bandits and criminals... colour me shocked. And others did it out of anger, vengeance and wealth. Which are also all ' extreme, even for the period!' But it was. People killing for enjoyment was rare, but for personal benefit? Very very common.


Right so you acknowledge my point and then dismiss it? Gan Ning's acts of random killing for enjoyment was rare. That is why I subjectively dislike him more than anyone else because I think that is EVEN worse than killing for another motive. You clearly don’t agree, fine. All murder is wrong, perhaps we are being superficial in trying to decide which murder is worse when all are evil acts. Clearly our measure is going to be subjective. I think I’ll finish this conversation here because I don’t think we are going to cover any new ground, if you wish to respond please feel free but I don't intend to keep going.

* * * * *

Han wrote:Sun Fin bio has

It appears that following the victory Yuan Shao attempted to advance further in to Gongsun Zan’s territory led by Cui Juye.(27) However Zan caught the army at Juma River and defeated the Cui Juye. Having regained the impetus in the struggle it was Gongsun Zan’s turn to drive in to Shao’s territory. Taking 30,000 men Zan attacked deep in to the south of Jizhou, getting as far as Pingyuan in Qingzhou where Gongsun Zan announced Tian Kai Inspector of Qingzhou. This opened a second front in the war between the two forces. Over the next year both sides took heavy loses as battles raged.(28)


I've checked my source for this paragraph which was Yun's articles on CHF and that says:

g) Liu Bei being present at this battle - there is no record of him being involved, but soon after this he was serving in Qingzhou under Gongsun's Governor there, Tian Kai. Qingzhou is on the Shandong peninsula, and Gongsun Zan (according to the Hou Hanshu) defeated an invading Yuan army at the Juma River sometime after Jieqiao, and then led 30,000 men on a counterattack south into Jizhou, as far as Pingyuan. From there, Tian Kai marched into Qingzhou and occupied it, opening up a second front against Yuan Shao. From 192 to 193, Yuan Shao's troops fought against Tian Kai's troops in Qingzhou, exhausting both sides and devastating the province. In this conflict, Liu Bei garrisoned Pingyuan and was a commander of a unit of Wuhuan cavalry from Youzhou. When Cao Cao later attacked Tao Qian at Xuzhou, Tian Kai and Liu Bei went to reinforce Tao, but Liu ended up defecting to Tao because the latter gave him 4,000 more soldiers.


He refrences the HHS as his original source and he implies that Zan lead the initial expedition before appointing Tian Kai Inspector and allowing him the freedom to continue the war.

Han wrote:
Dong had more rep among nomads, the two pre era generals were for both, Song had high rep in China (even a song about him after Turbans) but not the Qiang.


Dong had more rep than Gongsun? You sure?


Different barbarians, Dong's rep was with the Qiang whereas Zan's was with the Wuhuan and Xianbei so not really a fair comparison. I would suggest Dong's reputation was bigger though.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:35 pm

Han wrote:
Isnt read the battlefield very... vague? Regardless, I see generalship as winning at all costs. Be it by intellligence, cunning, tactics or martial prowess.

Guan Yu slay Baima, Pan Zhang and Ding Feng careers. Etc etc.

Thanks!


Show ability for a degree of tactical flair perhaps?

Sure but those are signs of their skills as warriors

Dong had more rep than Gongsun? You sure?


Sorry, what I mean is Dong seems to have had a stronger reputation among the tribes then in Han China rather then the Zan angle.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Sure.

But their warrior skills played an important role in their forces victories and generalship career.

I see.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Your right they did, I think the point Dong is making is that its not the defining point of being a general.

Lets look at who three of the best from the era (in my opinion at least) as a case study.

1) Cao Cao
2) Sun Ce
3) Sun Jian

Now the two Sun's lead from the front and their military exploits were very much built on their own martial skill as well as their tactical nous. Cao Cao on the other hand doesn't have a record for martial ability but was still an exceptional general - probably the best of the three.

Therefore martial skill can contribute to being a good general, but it's not necessary.
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Re: Most Hated Person

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:03 am

Agreed.
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