Did Liu Bei put his goals above family and friends?

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Did Liu Bei put his goals above family and friends?

Unread postby Lu Kang » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:01 am

Over the course of Liu Bei's distinguished career he left many people behind as he ran from place to another. When he fled Xuzhou he left Guan Yu and his family. At Chang Ban he left behind Zhang Fei as well as abondoning his family. He also left behind several benefactors (Yuan Shao, Gongsun Zan, etc.). The real question is, in Liu Bei's mind, was everyone expendable for his ultimate goal. He regularly left behind people when he needed to save himself and didn't worry with huge and noble efforts to save people from capture.

Now this isn't to say that Liu Bei didn't care about such people, but was he willing to leave them all behind to make it to his goal?
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:52 am

Lu Kang Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: Did Liu Bei put his goals above family and friends?

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Over the course of Liu Bei's distinguished career he left many people behind as he ran from place to another. When he fled Xuzhou he left Guan Yu and his family. At Chang Ban he left behind Zhang Fei as well as abondoning his family. He also left behind several benefactors (Yuan Shao, Gongsun Zan, etc.). The real question is, in Liu Bei's mind, was everyone expendable for his ultimate goal. He regularly left behind people when he needed to save himself and didn't worry with huge and noble efforts to save people from capture.

Now this isn't to say that Liu Bei didn't care about such people, but was he willing to leave them all behind to make it to his goal?


I didn't think that he was thinking that everyone is expendable... in Yuan Shao cases maybe Liu Bei see that Yuan Shao didn't care that much about the Han and thus left him... in the Chang Ban cases... they were attacked by a large army that they scatered in different ways... It is hard to know whether they are alright or not... however Liu Bei did waited for them to return right? So I think he still considers his generals and people important... remember the Zhao Yun episodes where he threw his own son to the ground? I think this proof enough that he is considerate to his people... also there is the episode during Fan Kou's crossing where he made to jump to the river as he watched the people in the banks?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:12 am

Sure, who wouldn't be?

I think to succeed in that dog-eat-dog world, one can't to too attached to anything.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:17 pm

The most obvious example of them all is Jing where he ignored all advise about attacking Wei to get revenge for his dead brother.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:05 pm

Well like lonely dragon said, in Chang Ban the entire army was scattered there was a hundred thousand civilians running around, pure chaos, hard to keep track of anything in that situation. Also unlike many other warlords Liu Bei was constantly being uprooted most of his career and his family had to either travel with the army or was in a minorly defended location. In Xu his home base was taken and there was no time for evacuation, Liu Bei's army was defeated. It wasn't like Liu Bei could take his defeated forces and ask Tsao Tsao to excuse him while he got everyone out of Xia Pi.
Also with Yuan Shao, it is not like Liu Bei just said "screw this i am leaving" he requested that he be send to gain the support of Liu Biao and that is what he did, well he tried to get Liu Biao to move. (Gongsun Zan's situation is a bit more iffy i will grant that :lol: )
It is a crazy world out there full of uncertainty. I am sure many front line officers were separated from their families after losing battles, in Liu Bei's case it was more noticeable since he was not only a general who liked to lead but the leader of his faction. Not making excuses for him, cause you could be right Lu Kang, there is a possiblity that Liu Bei saw his family as replaceable (not like those wives gave him sons anyway :lol: ) but i think it was more of his circumstances rather then a lack of caring.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:12 pm

Sun Fin wrote:The most obvious example of them all is Jing where he ignored all advise about attacking Wei to get revenge for his dead brother.


Obviously it had nothing to do with attacking someone who stabbed him in the back and invaded his lands. No sireee, that would make no sense at all. :roll:


And I agree with Lady Wu, harsh times needs a man who can face a harsh reality. And Liu Bei had a tougher job than most in getting to where he was.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:15 pm

Well it was probally that factor that was the real reason for the invasion but there is no fact that said it wasn't the death of his brother (and his son in law-Guan Ping) that was the reason for his passioned attack, (not that I've heard anyway).
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:10 pm

Exar Kun wrote:Obviously it had nothing to do with attacking someone who stabbed him in the back and invaded his lands. No sireee, that would make no sense at all. :roll:


Well to be stabbed in the back one must first turn it. Are you saying that Liu Bei was dumb enough to ignore any chance of an attack from Sun Quan?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:21 pm

Lu Kang wrote:Well to be stabbed in the back one must first turn it. Are you saying that Liu Bei was dumb enough to ignore any chance of an attack from Sun Quan?


I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
*checks what I wrote*
Right, I didn't say that.

Hey if anyone reads my post and sees that I said that lemme know,k? Cause Bofu thinks I said that apparently.
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Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:55 pm

I think it almost goes without saying that Liu Bei put his goals ahead of family and friends. Lets go down the list.

He recommends that Lu Bu be executed rather than join Cao Cao (where he might prove a threat later on). He abandons Guan Yu and his wives at Xuzhou to Cao Cao. He makes an excuse to leave Yuan Shao's forces. He acts suspiciously enough in Liu Biao's service to worry both Liu Biao and Cai Mao. He abandons his family at Chang Ban. He enters Shu under false pretenses to attack his distant relative Liu Zhang from within. He executes his adopted son Liu Feng to prevent a succession quarrel. And finally, though it may have been done to inspire loyalty, he encourages Zhuge Liang to take the throne from Liu Chan.

Trying to hand his newly formed dynasty off to someone not even distantly related to him rather than his own son would seem to imply that Liu Bei wanted the job done (unifying China and defeating Wei) at any cost.
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