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Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao?

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:27 pm
by Cao Shang
What if Zhuge Liang had not joined Liu Bei, but instead Cao Cao?

Let's assume there was no possibly incident where familiy members of Zhuge were harmed by Cao Cao!

If they would have worked together well, I am certain Cao Cao had united all China and
it would have benefited tremendously from it.

But what is your opinion?

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:00 pm
by huaxiong
I know your question is a "what if" but tbh after reading the novel, I just can't picture that ever happening. It's better to wonder what if Pang Tong joined Cao Cao. After all, besided Zhuge Liang, Cao Cao was the only person who saw through Pang Tong's ugliness and knew he was a brilliant strategist.

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:02 pm
by xiaoxiannu
I think the two can't work well together, as well as Cao Cao and Sima Yi. Cao Cao didn't want someone who is smarter than he played a important role such as Yang Xiu. Sima Yi didn't come up to the surface when Cao Cao still alive. Cao Cao more like a person like Xun Yu, Guo Jia, Xun You, Cheng Yu who is always work behind the desk to help him, not going to lead an army by himself. Anyways there is not mention that Cao Cao is intended to have ZGL on his side. Maybe a better question is if Xu Shu willing to work seriously under Cao Cao and give him his talent 100% instead of sleeping at Cao Cao army. :P

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:45 am
by Terranigma Freak
Cao Cao killed Yang Xiu not because he was smarter than Cao Cao, but because he wasn't very smart, and angered Cao Cao. Yang Xiu was so caught up in proving how smart he was, he didn't think twice about the consequences of his actions.

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:09 am
by Cao Shang
I think if Zhuge Liang wished so, it would have been possible, he was outstanding enough to work with Cao Cao and not get killed.

But I too am not very sure that it could have happened easily...

For Pang Tong, most don't like him much and don't regard him as a brilliant strategist at all, it seems.
He made some plans, then got killed by a strew arrow. :wink:

Xu Shu, I believe liked the way things played out very much, else he would have done something different.
Nothing wrong in that though.

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:31 am
by Paler than Moon
Wow I can't imagine Zhuge Liang joining up Cao Wei, it's very wickedseeing that even without Zhuge, Wei was a pretty great and stabilized country better than the other 2. If Zhuge was with Cao Cao, surely most of Wei's attacks on Shu & Wu would resulted in capturing more and more city. Shu would have less brilliant strategeist than Wei, and seeing that Sima Yi is there (also the others smart people Cao Cao already have), no one would stand a chance against Wei...

But then again, I'm not sure everything would stay that cool after Cao Cao and Zhuge died...

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:06 pm
by Dong Zhou
Novel wise, Zhuge Liang would see the land conquered as he is absolutely brilliant. Historically, be no real change as Cao Cao already had superior talents in Wei and doubt Zhuge Liang could do the Gupo Jia role of twisting Cao Cao around his finger

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:06 pm
by NOD
historically, nothing cao cao had all the talent in the world, liu bei would still attack chendu it was obviously his goal in the first place. later for shu it would have just fallen earlier to jiang wan i think?? or fei yi both capable. zhuge in wei would be nothing more than a civil administrator probley a small one seeing as wei had an over abundance of them

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:25 pm
by Elitemsh
Dong Zhou wrote:Historically, be no real change as Cao Cao already had superior talents in Wei and doubt Zhuge Liang could do the Gupo Jia role of twisting Cao Cao around his finger


Agree that not much would have changed historically. However were there really many superior talents in Wei than Kongming? I do not believe this is true. The historical Zhuge Liang was brilliant politically and a rare talent indeed? Didn't Sima Yi acknowledge this when he observed Zhuge's encampments or was this just in the novel? I know that Zhuge was overrated in the novel but still to say that there were many more superior talents in Wei is kinda harsh.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:41 pm
by NOD
in terms of military stratigest yes wei was harshly better, but il give him the political part he was a very capable individual but wei already at the time had capable political men so he would be needed. plus i dont think cao cao ever even heard of kongming untill word spread he joined liu bei