Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao?

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What if Zhuge Liang had not joined Liu Bei, but instead Cao Cao?

All China would have benefited tremendously!
7
21%
All China would have benefited somewhat.
0
No votes
Pretty decent, but after boths death, things would have played out similar.
8
24%
They would not have worked together well.
9
27%
They were to different, no good would have come of this!
8
24%
Something else... (explain in thread!)
1
3%
 
Total votes : 33

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:10 pm

Going off topic here for a sec. Dong who do you think is better then? Cao Cao, Sun Jian, Sun Ce are the only 3 that come to mind. Yet Lu Xun did beat him but is still considered insefferer to Zhuge Liang.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:00 am

I think a lot would depend on when Cao Cao aquired Zhuge Liang and how much trust he put in him.


I agree with this^^

Zhuge Liang was clearly a really talented man, it's just not sure exactly how Cao Cao would have treated him. If he'd had used him properly, I think he would have or could have been as good as Xun Wen Rou or any other strategist and adviser, but I dont know if Cao Cao would have "known" him or used him as a friend as much as he trusted and used people like Xun Yu or Dian Wei for example.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:07 pm

If the tripod is still set up, ZL is not the man to make it tip faster.

If ZL gained a high position in Wei, i think what might have happened would have been that he would prolong the civil war for longer by stabilising the internal situation of Wei so that the kingdom does not decline so fast but inevitably when he dies the sovereign is not able so the same will probably happen.

On the other hand i think ZL may have a hard time in the Wei court. The Wei court seemed quite a harsh place - look at the high ranking individuals and how they acted:

Liu Ye
Sima Yi
Hua Xin
Jia Xu
and a host of others.

There was factions, plots and backstabbing for the sake of power. The above ppl were all very astute and politically able but still some of them suffered.

ZL was top dog in Shu once Liu Bei died so he did not have as harsh a time. When he dealt with Fa Zheng he seemed to shy away and actually let him get away with alot - at least he is astute to see where the wind is blowing.

With Li Yan, i felt he was not ruthless enough before the fake memorial incident. It was clear what Li Yan's interests were given all his plotting prior to it but he still increased his power instead of curbing it.

Thus, i think ZL may have his hands full just dealing with all the intrigue which would probably kill him as quick as having to deal with all the affairs of Shu.

And lets face it, Cao Rui's appointment of regents sucked really badly so it depends on whether Cao Rui can acknowledge ZL as a good regent and how much power he gives him, as well as how ZL reacts to Cao Shuang.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:37 pm

Um.. just thought of something.

Why would it have benefited China tremendously if Cao Cao had taken over completely? I know that Cao seemed pretty benevolent in a lot of ways historically, but on the other hand, with all opposition crushed, would he have behaved badly?

I mean, it's not like all "united" countries under one rule are benefiting from such a situation because said ruler can be a complete ass.

BTW- I've just voted, and TBH, I think that ZGL wouldn't have joined Wei because he had that choice from the start, and he chose to join Liu Bei, not Cao Cao, and for that reason he wouldn't have been a help, he may have even been an ideological hinderance.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:01 pm

^I think that if Cao Cao united China it would be a good thing overall since the civil war would have ended decades earlier - huge numbers of ppl were dying and suffering because of the war. The civil war decimated the chinese population so the sooner it ends the better.

Further, at least it means 3 decent rulers Cao Cao, Cao Pi, Cao Rui and since the empire was not under constant military threat it is possible it could last a bit longer still since the military machine would probably be much slimmer and military commanders would not wield so much power.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:30 pm

Really? Are you sure the Cao's would have been such a benevolent person? Maybe he would have started wars with Taiwan or Korea, he may have been a really harsh dictator and crushed the population into the dust for his own imperial benefit.

We dont see that while he's at war with Shu and Wu, but who's to say he wouldn't when he "wins"?
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:34 pm

Well I decided to make a own thread for China united under Cao Cao. This is more about Zhuge joining him. :wink:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:32 pm

Shi Tong wrote:Really? Are you sure the Cao's would have been such a benevolent person? Maybe he would have started wars with Taiwan or Korea, he may have been a really harsh dictator and crushed the population into the dust for his own imperial benefit.

We dont see that while he's at war with Shu and Wu, but who's to say he wouldn't when he "wins"?


A war with Taiwan would be very brief and rather pointless. Given that by the time of Hanzhong he already showed signs of fatigue i think his military expansion would probably be limited once he united the empire. He would have his hands full consolidating his internal rule and securing his empire against non-han peoples.

I think the misrule and fall of Han would be quite fresh in Cao Cao's mind. I am not saying he is benevolent, how many emperors are? As long as he can rule semi-efficiently then it will be a drastic improvement.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:00 am

Maybe.

My points about the places he might invade were just examples because of course, Korea and Taiwan didn't exist in the same entity at that time anyway.

As for internal politics, who's to say it would be better if Shu and Wu were long gone? Maybe the Cao's would become more corrupt sooner because of the early fall of the opposition?
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:32 pm

Shi Tong wrote:Maybe.

My points about the places he might invade were just examples because of course, Korea and Taiwan didn't exist in the same entity at that time anyway.

As for internal politics, who's to say it would be better if Shu and Wu were long gone? Maybe the Cao's would become more corrupt sooner because of the early fall of the opposition?


Even if, still better than Civil War. :P Not that its likely as Cao Cao was a magnificent civil administrator.

And even Sun Quan nearly succeeded conquering Taiwan and that with 10000 soldiers which nearly all died form illness... :wink:
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