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Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:04 pm
by Sun Fin
after the way the desscussion in the vs section went i decided to set up this thread and it is whether Shu would of been better off with or without ZL recruiting Jiang Wei and what effect he had on shu in the long run.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:01 am
by Lonely_dragon
Without Jiang Wei Shu would have fall much earlier...

Though he drains Shu's resources but his constant attacks towards the North makes it difficult for Wei to find an opportunity to conquers Shu... after all the best defense is offense right?

Jiang Wei is a capable general however with Deng Ai aided by Wei's capable general it is very hard for Jiang Wei to gains a notable success...

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:31 am
by Lu Kang
There is no doubt in my mind that Shu would have been better off without Jiand Wei.

I don't think that there was a commander-in-chief or similiarly powerful general who faced so much opposition. He continually ignored it despite having only failed campaign after another.

Jiang Wei neglected his court duties of which he was a high officer and allowed Shu to become hallow from the inside. His poor policies left Shu with a weakened defence and an ill prepared army.

In the end even his leader had a lack of faith in Jiang Wei, something that wouldn't have happened if Jiang Wei had taken care of his responsibilities earlier.

He didn't just put the nails in Shu's coffin, he built the coffin and dug the hole.

To the Topic Creater: the poll is a little confusing as it asks an either/or question but provides basically a yes/no answer.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:03 am
by Cao Shang
Im in favor of Jiang Wei. Liu Shan and the treacherous Huang Hao are the real problems!

Wei only attacks after Jiang Wei is weakened a lot and has lost all support from Liu Shan and the court...
Shu also never would have been destroyed if not for Liu Shans complete uselessness and stupidity...rash words but justified!

Now when Jiang Wei would not have attacked Wei many times, Wei would have considered this as weakness and attacked much earlier.
The outcome would have been the same, Shu being destroyed.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:10 am
by ZhouTai50
Jiang Wei is the worst thing that ever happened to Shu. His continual campaigns drained Shu of all of it's resources and able men. He sent talented officers to their deaths because they opposed him, and he was a terrible politician. That is when he even acted as one, of course. Battle wise, he was definitely not good, especially in a command role. Put him under some other general and he may be okay.

I think you know my stance on him by now. :wink:

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:46 am
by Cao Shang
What harsh words against Jiang Wei!
I really believe he suffers greatly from the poor ability of others... and don't see how Shu would have been better off without him.

Shu had hundreds of thousands of soldiers(in reality that means more than enough to defeat the battered few troops of Deng Ai) when they surrendered, not going on expeditions against Wei, would not have made huge different...

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:49 am
by ZhouTai50
Wei outnumbered Shu by a very large number throughout the era, and Jiang Wei' scampaigns only caused the gap to widen. Jiang Wei did have many loyal and talented officers at his disposal, but he either didn't use them or got them killed. Men like Zhang Yi, Zhang Ni, Xiahou Ba, Fu Qian, Luo Xian, etc.

At the time Liu Shan surrendered, Chengdu was left without any leadership and few men while Jiang Wei was in the field, and Deng Ai threatening from the mountain pass.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:55 am
by Cao Shang
But there where more than enough soldiers to defend and even defeat Deng Ai.

Jiang Wei had blocked Zhong Hui troops. Had Liu Shan not surrendered, how could Shu have been defeated there?

Jiang Wei advised earlier to block the mountain passages but Liu Shan did not listen to the advice. How can Jiang Wei be blamed, he saw the enemies strategy and acted accordingly...

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:00 am
by ZhouTai50
Shu would have been easily defeated by Deng Ai's men had they actually assaulted Chengdu. There were very little able officers in Chengdu at this time, and IIRC, Deng Ai outnumbered the Chengdu force.

I'd also like to see the source of this information about Jiang Wei advisiong that. Don't remember reading about it in the SGZ, ZZTJ, etc.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:05 am
by Cao Shang
I don't remember the source where is says Jiang Wei advising Liu Shan, but Im certain I read it somewhere. :roll:

Now if that was just fictional and Deng Ai had also more troops... I still think surrendering was the poorest option!