Shu and Jiang wei

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Would Shu of been better off with or without Jiang Wei

Better with Jiang Wei
7
41%
Better without Jiang Wei
10
59%
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:56 am

Xia Kyoto wrote:I think what The Hidden Dragon is trying to say, is that, let's just pretend that Sima Yi succeeded and replaced Zhuge Liang, in place of Jiang Wei, and that he somehow served Shu. Would he heave done anything different? (Concerning the corruption scenario, and maybe the..military scenario?) Correct me if I'm wrong.


ya thats why i meant. sorry for the typo or bad phrasing. =P

but this senario is purely imaginary. i believe Sima would contain the corruption and control the court much better than jiang wei , as jiang wei since most of the time are out field, and sima would prefer a more safe and defensive approach.

If sima was really incharged, shu might last longer as it would be rather difficult for Wei to bash thru the terrain. Maybe the 3 kingdom stand off might last for another 50 years or so.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:12 am

the hidden dragon wrote:but this senario is purely imaginary. i believe Sima would contain the corruption and control the court much better than jiang wei , as jiang wei since most of the time are out field, and sima would prefer a more safe and defensive approach.


Sima Yi couldn't handle Cao Shuang's maneuvering and they were co-regents. You really think he would fare better against Huang Hao?

If sima was really incharged, shu might last longer as it would be rather difficult for Wei to bash thru the terrain. Maybe the 3 kingdom stand off might last for another 50 years or so.


Yeah...but I think continued division would have hurt China a lot more. Wu was in deep crap no matter what with Sun Hao's actions. It's like he went straight to being old Sun Quan and just skipped right past the younger years. If Wei became unstable, the northern tribes may have pounced earlier like they did with Jin. Shu surviving longer oddly enough - in my opinion - would've been worse for the country as a whole.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby mrbeate » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:28 am

Zyzyfer wrote:Sima Yi couldn't handle Cao Shuang's maneuvering and they were co-regents. You really think he would fare better against Huang Hao?


Sima Yi was up against Wei's biggest faction head, Cao Shuang had more influence, support, which would lead to greater power in court. I think Sima Yi meant to kowtow to Shuang in order to avoid being slandered and attacked by the Cao/Xiahou faction who dominated Wei. However by suddenly taking over Luoyang and forcing Shuang to surrender his power, Sima Yi was able to avoid facing up with his faction. Sima Yi would then replace and/or execute former affiliates of Cao Shuang, and place in his allies into necessary positions.

So in this scenario, I would think if Sima Yi can push down Huang Hao(as Dong Yun had done) or have him removed. He would be able to take control of the court.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:13 am

Zyzyfer wrote:Yeah...but I think continued division would have hurt China a lot more. Wu was in deep crap no matter what with Sun Hao's actions. It's like he went straight to being old Sun Quan and just skipped right past the younger years. If Wei became unstable, the northern tribes may have pounced earlier like they did with Jin. Shu surviving longer oddly enough - in my opinion - would've been worse for the country as a whole.


well i guess u r correct and i agree on this too. by the time later stages of 3 kingdoms, all 3 sides were already weaken by quite a fair bit.

I guess Wu since sun quan's time, foundation were already laid by sun ce and during the early sun quan and Zhou yu era, there were many able people around, like Lu Su, lu meng and many other people. Sun Quan was a lucky person who took over during an era where expansion and offensive were not much, and what he did was mainly maintainig what he already got. Of cos he still got Lu xun, lu kang, Ding Feng all these able men to assist him.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:37 am

Sima Yi couldn't handle Cao Shuang's maneuvering and they were co-regents. You really think he would fare better against Huang Hao?


I believe he could have for two reasons

1) Huang Hao started with a lot less influence. Shuang was co-Regent and a member of the Imperial family, which by itself made him a difficult man to get rid of whereas Huang Hao was just a eunuch. A eunuch with Liu Shan's friendship but that didn't help against Dong Yun for example.

2) Huang Hao seems to have lost every political battle he ever fought.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:08 am

Fair enough. It sounds like in this case however that Sima Yi wouldn't find any real conflicts. Any suppositions as to what he might have done in this role? I hold the view that the underlying reason why he did what he did in Wei was due to the struggle with Cao Shuang, and things would've turned out differently up north if Cao Shuang had played ball nicer.

I'm really quite curious about Sima Yi. He never really struck me as plotting to take out Wei all along.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:19 am

Honestly, no idea. I think the danger is that, unlike Zhuge Liang/Jiang Wan/Fei Yi, Sima Yi has able sons who could step in on his death which could weaken Liu Shan's authority and led to an eventual usurpation.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:59 am

sima yi's son not bad. but the grand son who became the jin emperor was just a lucky silver spooned person born at right time right place i guess.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:20 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Fair enough. It sounds like in this case however that Sima Yi wouldn't find any real conflicts. Any suppositions as to what he might have done in this role? I hold the view that the underlying reason why he did what he did in Wei was due to the struggle with Cao Shuang, and things would've turned out differently up north if Cao Shuang had played ball nicer.

I'm really quite curious about Sima Yi. He never really struck me as plotting to take out Wei all along.


After the crap the Sima family suffered i am not surprised they eventually did what they did.

If the Sima family is loyal then i think Liu Shan could be secure for a little while longer but Liu Shan would outlive Sima Yi but alot and remember what Sima Zhao said: Not even ZL's genius could sustain Liu Shan for long after he passed. Sima Yi's sons were far less loyal and if they had the opportunity, Shu might have still been conquered by the Simas just the same (just internally this time). :D

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After ZL's death the people missed his rule and realised how great he was and the state survived for a while after his death. ZL also fortified the defensive posture of Shu by capturing two Wei commanderies, modestly expanding her borders and building two new walled cities in Hanzhong. Before JW even died he was extremely unpopular with the people and directly compromised the defence of Shu just so he could fight a battle.
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