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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:27 am
by xiaoxiannu
What...Shu without Jiang Wei ?
of course Shu has fallen much earlier, I says who is in Shu that can be appointed as a commander in chief when faces the smart Deng Ai and talented Zhong Hui, plus Sima brothers ?
Wang Ping, Zhang Yi, Fu Qian ?
They are only a good general not a great commander, so even Jiang Wei has poor ability to govern Shu like ZGL, I think Shu has no more option at that time. That is why ZGL didn't give Jiang Wei the highest position after his death, he gives it to Jiang Wan, so Jiang Wei can focus on military matters. IMO.. :D
And I agreed that the pool is little confusing too... :lol:

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:25 am
by Lu Kang
xiaoxiannu wrote:What...Shu without Jiang Wei ?
of course Shu has fallen much earlier, I says who is in Shu that can be appointed as a commander in chief when faces the smart Deng Ai and talented Zhong Hui, plus Sima brothers ?
Wang Ping, Zhang Yi, Fu Qian ?
They are only a good general not a great commander, so even Jiang Wei has poor ability to govern Shu like ZGL, I think Shu has no more option at that time. That is why ZGL didn't give Jiang Wei the highest position after his death, he gives it to Jiang Wan, so Jiang Wei can focus on military matters. IMO.. :D
And I agreed that the pool is little confusing too... :lol:


Any of those options would have been better than Jiang Wei. Jiang Wei while being talented in some forms of military strategy lacked the proper forsight to launch good campaigns. He followed Zhuge Liang's framework and did a worse job at it. Fei Wei understood it the best, "If we are not as capable as Kongming, how can we expect ourselves to do more than him" (Paraphrased). He knew that launching large campaigns that failed when a genius launched them would not succed under a less skilled man.

Another general probably would not have neglected their court duties as much and cared for the people of Shu more. Jiang Wei did such a bad job that he lost the vote of confidence from his leader. Liu Shan wouldn't even grant him his troops in the end because he couldn't trust Jiang Wei enough. That is terrible. Other generals saw the effect of the campaigns on the people and knew that they had to be stopped. Only Jiang Wei and Huang Hao liked them. Yes, Jiang Wei's only supporter was Huang Hao.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:32 am
by xiaoxiannu
Lu Kang wrote: Other generals saw the effect of the campaigns on the people and knew that they had to be stopped. Only Jiang Wei and Huang Hao liked them. Yes, Jiang Wei's only supporter was Huang Hao.


What ? Does this true ? What source do you used in ? SGZ or SGYY ?
:shock:
I'm totally shocked !!! Is Jiang Wei and Huang Hao is rivalry each other ?
:?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:48 am
by Dong Zhou
Huang Hao and Jiang Wei clashed once and Liu Shan ordered Hao to apologise but wouldn't surprise me if Hao supported the campaigns, kept Jiang Wei out of the way.

. I still think surrendering was the poorest option!


Ok lets look at the situation. Shu had lost it's best defence point, Liu Shan's delay wasn't vital to that but that the reinforcements promptly deciding to disobey orders was, so Wei could launch campaign after campaign from Hanzhong. Shu's commander in chief is hated by the people who will not want to support the losing war, the administration is not in good shape, Wu isn't entirely trusted and may well turn on their ally. Why fight on? Let's look at the five options that Sima Yi uses in the novel

1) Attack: Tried that, Liu Shan sent Zhuge Zhan, Huang Chong and others. Despite Huang Chong's advice, Zhuge Zhan manages to lose, die and the army is handed a defeat and the loss of many officers, including I think the heir to the throne.

2) Defend. After the defeat of Zhuge Zhan, nobody suggested it and it doesn't sound like an option.

3) Flee. Qiao Zhao rightly opposed this, I mean where could the court go? Can't get to Jiang Wei, any journey they do make may lead to Liu Shan's life being taken, Nanman are hardly going to be ideal support if he goes there and serving Wu will make him no more then a puppet and one that will end up having to surrender twice.

4) Surrender. Shu is doomed long term, surrender and Shan saves many lives.

5) Die. Really what is the point of doing that and throwing other peoples lives when he can surrender?

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Jiang Wei was able in the field of battle as he proved during his raids on Wei when Fei Yi kept him under control, had he remained a mere general he would have been a good addition to the Shu ranks. However Shu would be better off without him as a commander, he helped destroy Shu by ignoring problems at home (and driving the people to revolt against him.) and launching wave after wave of attack which didn't dent Wei and cost Shu much needed troops. A solid commander who was willing to utilise talent, listen to others and work on home front, someone like Zhang Yi for example would have been a far better choice.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:08 pm
by Sun Fin
I like Jiang Wei and he had alot of talent and i think he was the most capable Shu officer for leading at the time except for maybe Wei Yan and that whole issue. However he made one very big mistake and that was ignoring court intrigues. He needed to spend more time making sure his own position was safe before trying to take Wei.
BTW can someone tell me how to change the poll options I'm still not completely competent on this site. :oops:

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:03 pm
by the glorious sun jian
I dont think that Jiang Wei fit the big positions , if he was under a commander he will do much better than to be a commander ......also I dont think that he was loyal to any kingdom as I think he was a fame hungry man ......

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:09 pm
by Zhilong
Yuan Yun wrote:I don't remember the source where is says Jiang Wei advising Liu Shan, but Im certain I read it somewhere. :roll:

Now if that was just fictional and Deng Ai had also more troops... I still think surrendering was the poorest option!


Historically, surrendering was the better option.

Going by the novel, you would have that SOB make the ppl suffer more only to still get defeated in the end? Lets face it if he wasn't defeated that day it would be on another day.

xiaoxiannu wrote:What...Shu without Jiang Wei ?
of course Shu has fallen much earlier, I says who is in Shu that can be appointed as a commander in chief when faces the smart Deng Ai and talented Zhong Hui, plus Sima brothers ?
Wang Ping, Zhang Yi, Fu Qian ?
They are only a good general not a great commander, so even Jiang Wei has poor ability to govern Shu like ZGL, I think Shu has no more option at that time. That is why ZGL didn't give Jiang Wei the highest position after his death, he gives it to Jiang Wan, so Jiang Wei can focus on military matters. IMO.. :D


Wang Ping was commander material imo but he was dead by that point. None of the ppl left seemed to have potential to defeat Wei but i think there was sufficient ppl left to at least competently defend and not exhaust the state. I wouldn't say their dealing with the corruption would be any better but certainly it could not have been worse than Jiang Wei.

Jiang Wan succeeded ZL in his role as prime minister and his role as commander in chief as per ZL's wishes. He wanted to leave Jiang Wei behind as a talented generation for the next generation, there is no mention he wanted him to be commander in chief.

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As a general or as a commander under a more shrewd ruler Jiang Wei would have been an asset. Everyone has their weak points and many great men in history may not have achieved what they did if they did not meet a suitable ruler who can properly manage them. Leaving personnel to do as they please is not usually a good management policy for a ruler.

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:07 pm
by Dong Zhou
Sun Fin wrote:BTW can someone tell me how to change the poll options I'm still not completely competent on this site. :oops:


what do you want it as?

Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:29 pm
by Sun Fin
Dong Zhou wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:BTW can someone tell me how to change the poll options I'm still not completely competent on this site. :oops:


what do you want it as?


err I think with and without will make it less confusing but if you have a better idead then use that Dong :)

Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:19 am
by Xia Kyoto
Shu needed a pool of talent after Wu Zhang, and Jiang Wei was talented to a certain extent. I just think that he should have been limited, trained, and put to good use in the right ways.