Pang Tong, genius of the time, or just overrated a lot?

[Dong Zhou]

You know the 215 invasion, Lu Su panicked and it was Lu Meng who took the cities? Lu Su wasn't much in terms of military but he was a political great.

[the glorious sun jian]

You know the 215 invasion, Lu Su panicked and it was Lu Meng who took the cities? Lu Su wasn't much in terms of military but he was a political great.

Yah I know what happened I was just pointing that he led something and I think he was calmer than Pang Tong whos plan will bring downfall to his lord army

[Long]

Pang tong was a brilliant strategist, who I rate higher than Zhuge Liang in that regard, his death was a frek incident to say the least, and he could have changed the face of the three kingdoms had he survived.

But there are several men who could have done that as well..

Interesting, but why exactly do you rate him as a brilliant strategist?

Historically, his three strategies for taking Shu which he presented to Liu Bei were all excellent plans, with detail and angles covered that a lot of other strategists of the time would have lacked. Pang Tong was one of the greatest military campaign planners of the era.

I can't find it, but Dong and I examined his plans more thoroughly in another thread somewhere.

Edit: You can see a detailed discussion of Pang Tong and his strategies, courtesy of Dong Zhou and I here

[Dong Zhou]

Yah I know what happened I was just pointing that he led something and I think he was calmer than Pang Tong whos plan will bring downfall to his lord army

I don't think panicking is a sign of calmness or that helpful. Yes I also find some of Pang Tong's plans to be... overly aggressive but he did offer good plans as well

[xiaoxiannu]

You know the 215 invasion, Lu Su panicked and it was Lu Meng who took the cities? Lu Su wasn't much in terms of military but he was a political great.

Yah I know what happened I was just pointing that he led something and I think he was calmer than Pang Tong whos plan will bring downfall to his lord army

I agreed with Dongy, Lu Su maybe calmer than Pang Tong, but he is not more best than Pang Tong in military matters. I prefer says Lu Su is good at second person in charge ( I mean assistant than a commander ). It is proved when he is participate in Chi Bi as Zhou Yu's sub-command.

[Bai Mei]

Pang Tong is a genius. If he wasn't, Zhuge Liang wouldn't have ever considered the man his equal. Maybe he did overate people like Ma Su and Li Yan, but those were pretty much his only oversights. And although it's true Pang Tong had a penchant for coming up with risky strategies, so did many other very successful strategists like Zhou Yu. That's less a matter of genius, and more a matter of personality and temperament, and besides, even the cautious Zhuge Liang admitted there was a time where risky strategies were the best, maybe even the only, ones. He was instrumental in obtaining Yiazhou for Liu Bei, which was pretty much the most significant territory they ever gained. So even if he isn't the equal of the Sleeping Dragon, he's still the Fledgling Phoenix and he has the title for a reason: because he was considered worthy of it. So regardless of whether or not he's Zhuge Liang's equal, he'd still be an incredible asset for Shu to have had during, say, Guan Yu's defense of Jingzhou or the Battle of Yiling, where his risky strategies could have turned the tide, much like what you could say about Guo Jia or Fa Zheng.

[Crazedmongoose]

I think we were talking historically. And historically was there a fledgling phoenix at all? I don't recall so. There was only Zhuge Liang as the sleeping dragon.