Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:24 pm

If wu controls Jing, can't see Chi Bi happening since Jing wouldn't fall so easily and presumably Ce would have allies with Liu Zhang to allow his to concentrate his forces on one flank.

On the other hand, I don't see Cao Cao randomly killing an ally for giving him information then being caught out by the attack
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17463
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:52 am

Sun Ce attacks Liu Biao; wins with relative ease. Takes both Jing Bei and Jing Nan, acquiring (ok I'm dreaming a bit) Huang Zhong and Gan Ning.


OK so far I agree

Leaves Yi alone, looks north as Cao Cao conquers it.


Here I don't. If Ce has Jing then Liu Bei will flee to his other powerful relative, Liu Zhang. Liu Zhang with the three brothers, possibly still Zhuge Liang depends if he was actually following Liu Bei's life, he might be able to succed repelling Cao Cao. Espically if Sun Ce helps.

Zhao Yu suggests a joint attack, provokes the Xiliang provence, (Ma Teng/Ma Chao) who obviously hate (or I suppose will hate) Cao Cao. Upon realizing attacking Cao Cao is political suicide, Ma Teng instead informs him of Zhao Yun's plot.


This is Ma Teng here, he goes to war against Dong Zhou with just Han Sui, I can't see him turning down a chance to extend his power base. Besides a three way allegience between Sun Ce, Ma Teng and the Liu's they have a very good chance!

Cao Cao, being the fun loving guy he is, kills Ma Teng for conspiracy, and history is hastened (Ma Chao's hatred). Cao Cao, unaware of Ma Chao's upcoming vengeance, prepares to attack Northern Jing.


Maybe, but thats more Dong Zhou/Yuan Shao/Cao Pi's style. Can't see Cao Cao actually doing that unless he thinks Ma Teng is going for a double cross.

Now the question is, do the events of Chi Bi still take place with Sun Ce at Wu's helm?


No because Sun Ce already conquers Jing so Liu Bei wouldn't flee to Liu Biao for aid he'd go to Liu Zhang.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand and my tumblr to see if I have reviewed it!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7906
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby 1mandynasty » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
1mandynasty wrote:from his imagination


don't be rude


my bad my bad :oops:
User avatar
1mandynasty
Student
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:35 am
Location: Leaving my playground..okay playtime's over..time to growup..

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:43 am

I really dont see Ce attacking cao cao, i think he would First find an Opportunity to avenge his father, Gan ning hateing Huang zu would have rebeled against him in a more favorable manner (perhaps Ling cao's death woul have been prevented but who knows) with jing under Wu's banner MUCH earlier, by now both Ce and Cao have finished Mopping up there Rival's liu bei flees like he always does, i Highly doubt Ce would give liu bei some land of his own thus bei will probably turn to liu zhang causing trouble.

What Ce does next now that he has jing?? well now i think he would begin his Domestic stuff, Cao owning the Whole north now So going on another military advanture would expose his flanks big time. i think it would come down to yet another stalemate along the Rivers of Easter Wu but i dont think Cao Cao would be foolish enough to just attack jing and the river since its all unified, when cao took jing it was highly unstable.
User avatar
dymlos timbre
Scholar
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:38 am
Location: At Nagashino Witnessing the end of an era.

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:39 pm

dymlos timbre wrote:I really dont see Ce attacking cao cao


Why not? Sun Ce was already planning to take Xu Chang while Cao Cao's main army fight Yuan Shao. He was training soldiers at Chai Sang to prepare for his invasion on Xu Chang, but then he died and left Jiang Dong to Sun Quan.
Smoke, drink, relieve my stress
User avatar
mrbeate
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: GTA

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:30 pm

its debatable, becouse he never In historical records made an alliance with yuan shao to attack Cao Cao, not to mention Im sure Veteran generals were Itching to get revenge for their late lord so attacking liu biao would further increase loyalty and show that he was a dedicated Son willing to avenge the death of his father.
User avatar
dymlos timbre
Scholar
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:38 am
Location: At Nagashino Witnessing the end of an era.

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:04 am

It also seems out of character for Ce to risk everything like that by opening up a second front rather then deal with the war he already faces
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17463
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:34 am

Agreed, Dong. Add on the fact that he had already been trounced by Chen Deng twice, and the threat of the Shanyue and Xu Gong and a Sun attack on Cao Cao would be extremely unlikely.
My avatar is Roy from Fire Emblem: Binding Blade, as he appears in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Quote of the "Day": "The world always seems brighter when you've just made something that wasn't there before." -Neil Gaiman
User avatar
Qu Hui
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: #SoSZ, 24/7

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:40 pm

S dealing with those and attacking Liu biao was a more realistic choice?
User avatar
dymlos timbre
Scholar
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:38 am
Location: At Nagashino Witnessing the end of an era.

Re: Sun Ce: Wu, if he lived?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:49 pm

dymlos timbre wrote:S dealing with those and attacking Liu biao was a more realistic choice?

Yes, for several reasons.
1. Logistically, Liu Biao's Jiangxia was closer than any of Cao Cao's cities.
2. Wu did manage to destroy Xu Gong later that year. Attempting to make any outward conquest with Xu Gong nipping at Wu's heels would have proved fatal.
3. Liu Biao was much weaker militarily than Cao Cao, and would have been more safe to attack than Cao, even if Cao was occupied with Yuan Shao at the time.
4. Like Dong said, there was already a war on the Liu Biao front. Opening up a second front against Cao Cao would have been suicidal.
5. The Shanyue made incursions into Wu often, and making sure that someone was still in Wu to repel them would be vital. An invasion of both Liu Biao and Cao Cao would make this impossible.
6. If Sun Ce were to attack Cao Cao, then he would need to withdraw most of his troops from the Liu Biao front, thus leaving room for Liu Biao to order a counterattack.
My avatar is Roy from Fire Emblem: Binding Blade, as he appears in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Quote of the "Day": "The world always seems brighter when you've just made something that wasn't there before." -Neil Gaiman
User avatar
Qu Hui
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: #SoSZ, 24/7

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 9 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron