Overrated & Underrated

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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:52 pm

There's a Wei officer named Zhao Yan who seems like a very underrated (perhaps more accurately overlooked) figure; he had success as both an administrator and in military matters, but is rarely mentioned.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby mendedties » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:37 am

I've always felt Zhang Xiu was underrated. The way I understand it he successfully repelled Cao Cao again and again before finally deciding to join the man on his own terms.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:45 pm

Good picks. Zhao Yun had an accomplished career but is forgotten about and while Zhang Xiu's rep is better then it was but perhaps still a Jia Xu overshadow factor
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:06 pm

Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang (Shu) are the novel's main characters.
Cao Cao and Sima Yi (Wei) are their main enemies.

Sun Quan is neither, so the novel mainly ignores him... the main exceptions being Chibi and Yiling, as they involve Liu Bei.

But what could he do? The emperor at the time was pro-Shu, so they had to make Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang the main characters. If they produced a pro-Wu book, it'd do as badly as if an American WWII action flick in modern USA was pro-USSR instead of the normal pro-USA.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby ivolga » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:01 pm

Gray Riders wrote:There's a Wei officer named Zhao Yan who seems like a very underrated (perhaps more accurately overlooked) figure; he had success as both an administrator and in military matters, but is rarely mentioned.


Yes, Zhao Yan is the one I've wanted to mention here too. Zhao Yan served as adviser and coordinator for Zhang Liao, Yu Jin, and Yue Jin during the campaign against Liu Biao, was Xu Huang's adviser during Fancheng siege, took part in Hanzhong campaign. Later, as a general, he was actively involved in almost every major military operation in Wei till his passing during Cao Fang reign at the age of 74. As far as I remember, he was the first marshal of Wei.
Yet the first time I've heard about Zhao Yan was when I accidentally stumbled upon his name while browsing the Three Kingdoms Questions thread on this forum! He seems so interesting, it's a shame he isn't more well-known.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Lord Oda Nobunaga » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:57 am

Dong Zhou's response

Whoooo long response. :)

1. I'm not saying it was easy but his invasion of Yan province was an epic fail despite having so much going for him. The fact that Cao Cao won at all is astounding.

The battle I mentioned happened outside of Xiapi.

... I still hate Lu Bu, I think he was just awful :devil:

2. With Guan Yu I was more referring to the popular opinion, not necessarily on this forum. His reputation is over inflated and the Sanguo Yanyi and folk tales probably did most of the work if not all.

3. I agree some people have a very negative reaction to Zhuge Liang. He's alright in my book I really have no problems with him overall just the exaggerations in Sanguo Yanyi and maybe some other sources.

4. Would Liu Bei beat Xiahou Dun? Hey if you say so.
My problem isn't that Liu Bei used an ambush, just that he seems unable to sustain himself in an even fight. His defeat to victory ratio is ridiculously towards one side, the defeat side. I'm thinking that he only survived or won because he used an ambush in that battle. My opinion of Liu Bei is fairly bad.

5. I was more referring to Xiahou Dun in Sanguo Yanyi where he fought Guan Yu. I think he gets more positive coverage in the book than Cao Hong and Cao Ren.

6. I like Sun Quan everything considered. The Sanguo Yanyi painfully underrates him and treats him like a side note. He is pretty much depicted as a cowardly back stabber who is not very competent and takes a back seat to Liu Bei. This might have distorted people's views of him I think.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:59 pm

1) Well yes it failed, after famine took it's toll on his forces and stopped his winning run. Could Lu Bu have made better decisions? Yes. Is losing to Cao Cao a shame? No. Is the defeat as bad as you say? No.

As I recall, Lu Bu bottled up at Xia Pi bar rather then engage in another fight in a war he wanted to surrender in

If Lu Bu was so awful, doesn't speak well of Cao Cao that Lu Bu drove him to the point of surrender does it. :wink:

2) Agreed

4) Liu Bei rarely fought an even fight though, most of the time he was the underdog with a small force. He wasn't a great commander but he gained his reputation through his abilities as one

Xiahou Dun managed to get held hostage by his own men and lost most of his battles when commander, he was an awful awful commander.

5) I think it is more Xiahou Dun shines with things like the eye moment and Hong (to an extent Ren) in novel are the "we need someone to get beaten off screen" characters

6) I agree. I also think when people turn to history, his actions in old age, the miliatry glory of Jian and Ce (whereas Quan's talents more take time to discover) mean people take awhile to realize the full glory of Sun Quan.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Gray Riders » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:25 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:As I recall, Lu Bu bottled up at Xia Pi bar rather then engage in another fight in a war he wanted to surrender in

To Establish Peace doesn't go into detail but mentions Lu Bu losing repeatedly to Cao Cao during Cao Cao's final invasion and it seems to be outside Xiapi.

Of course considering the resource difference I think there was no chance Lu Bu wasn't massively outnumbered since Cao Cao was among the most powerful warlords at this point (second only to Yuan Shao, I think?) and Lu Bu had a single province that had been massacred by someone I can't quite recall a few years before he gained it.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:09 pm

I thought that was before Cao Cao reached Xia Pi?

I think Lu Bu's bigger problem was his failure to impose order on his officer core and a sense that, at least by the end, he lacked the drive to fight.
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Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:40 am

Dong Zhou wrote:6) I agree. I also think when people turn to history, his actions in old age, the miliatry glory of Jian and Ce (whereas Quan's talents more take time to discover) mean people take awhile to realize the full glory of Sun Quan.


The problem with Sun Quan is that he's a jerk.
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