Overrated & Underrated

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Gray Riders » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:22 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
The problem with Sun Quan is that he's a jerk.

All the major warlords were jerks. When you're comparing him to the other warlords you can't fairly deduct points for that anymore than deducting points for being a warlord; it'd be fair under other circumstances but under these ones it's sort of a prerequisite for the position.
Gray Riders
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:02 am

Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:39 pm

Yeah true - they were all jerks in different ways. I find the way Quan treated his followers on occasion particularly distasteful - like Lu Xun. An accusation you can base at Cao Pi as well but not so much at the other major lords. I also hate way people revere Gan Ning when he was such an unpleasant individual made worse by the freedom he was given by Sun Quan. I know Liu Bei let certain people run riot, like Fa Zheng, but people don't treat him in the same way as Ning.

Also I know Sun Ce was no saint but I don't think you can accuse him of either of those things.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6446
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:28 pm

Lu Xun's the big one against Sun Quan, either people use it as a symbol of his descent or the big reason they dislike him. Yet while Sun Quan could indeed be a massive jerk to his officers, I can see where Sun Quan was coming from with Lu Xun's death. It was grossly unfair but I don't think Quan was being a jerk on that one.

Those that were really really kind to nearly everyone tended to be ineffective as rulers. The most successful rulers seem to have had a strong case of jerky, even towards their officers (Liu Bei and Cao Cao could be jerks) and I think that is partly ego driven by success/ambition and ruling brings out the greatest+worst parts of a personality. Sun Ce's issue was more insecurity within himself, he didn't have that same ego as the others

I agree with Sun Fin that Gan Ning gets away with it. I wonder how much of that is DW, the early games had a charismatic Gan Ning with flair and style, a loveable rogue and that sticks. In terms of Sun Quan using him, it was a wise move from Sun Quan, his strength was partly the ability to unite men of all morality and styles behind him for his fledgling kingdom, men of flair and men of strictness, men of honour and psychopaths. Gan Ning was very useful and he was loyal, worth far more then the negatives that came from his crimes.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14457
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby greencactaur » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:42 pm

I'm on my phone sorry for any types and terrible grammar. I think Lu xuns exile was the right choice. If sun quan chose a successor that was weak they'd be easily controlled, like emperor bixian and cao cao. If he ended up agreeing with lu xun and unexpectedly died lu could've controlled the government and controlled all power. Reading someones mind is impossible so even if lu was loyal he could've just as easily been bidding his time to rake over.

If sun Quan chose one group over the other the government would've been split and internal problems would've occurred. The art of war promotes discipline and lu xuns actions were in my eyes incorrect. The successor to sun Quan was a family affair he shouldnt have ever been apart of. He should've followed his lord faithfully until Quan asked for his opinion. If he didn't punish lu xun it would've promoted the idea of a general being unfaithful! How could he be able to maintain military and state discipline without
properly disciplining and rewarding the men?

As for warlords being Jerks, deception is key to warfare. Out playing, maneuvering, and out smarting your enemy is the key. So lying, and distrustfulness sometimes is the best option depending on circumstances. If lu bu some how.managed to win at Xia pi he would be considered a military genius, instead of an unloyal dog. Therefore if one is capable of showing their enemy they are weak when they are actually strong or they are strong when they are actually weak, the truly can master the art of war.
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:14 pm

Keep in mind that Sun Quan trusted Lu Xun so greatly that Lu Xun could act without first confirming plans with Sun Quan. So I don't think there was a risk of him taking over.

And as for Lu Bu winning at Xiapi, his reputation would depend on whether it was from military skill or from Cao Cao stopping an arrow with his face.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.
DragonAtma
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 886
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:52 am

DragonAtma wrote:Keep in mind that Sun Quan trusted Lu Xun so greatly that Lu Xun could act without first confirming plans with Sun Quan. So I don't think there was a risk of him taking over.

And as for Lu Bu winning at Xiapi, his reputation would depend on whether it was from military skill or from Cao Cao stopping an arrow with his face.

You make a great point i forgot lu Xun was given permission to dour whatever he wanted and was given that seal.the confirm it. That being said it was still something that displeased sun quan and if he was upset and didn't punish him it'd be an example of.other generals doing whatever they please and no expecting punishment. I think he was right still
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:17 am

greencactaur wrote:If lu bu some how.managed to win at Xia pi he would be considered a military genius, instead of an unloyal dog.


I don't know about military genius, but I suddenly had this amusing image of Lu Bu taking Liu Bei's place as the devout Han loyalist and Cao Cao's chief foil and rival.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3047
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:41 am

greencactaur wrote:I'm on my phone sorry for any types and terrible grammar. I think Lu xuns exile was the right choice. If sun quan chose a successor that was weak they'd be easily controlled, like emperor bixian and cao cao. If he ended up agreeing with lu xun and unexpectedly died lu could've controlled the government and controlled all power. Reading someones mind is impossible so even if lu was loyal he could've just as easily been bidding his time to rake over.


I thought the implication was that Sun Quan didn't just exile Lu Xun he eventually ordered him to commit suicide?
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6446
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:40 pm

Not quite sure, wikipedia says he died of frustration.

lu Xun died in anger and frustration at the age of 63 (by East Asian age reckoning). His family did not own much property when he died. He was later granted the posthumous title of "Marquis Zhao" (昭侯; literally "illustrious marquis") by Sun Xiu, the third emperor of Wu.[Sanguozhi 43]
User avatar
greencactaur
Academic
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Overrated & Underrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:34 pm

SGZ goes
Sun Quan also repeatedly sent messengers from the court to reprimand Lu Xun. Filled with vexation and grief, Lu Xun died, at the age of 63. He had little wealth to leave behind to his family.


Died of frustration/grief either tends to mean 1) died of natural causes and they thought the person's troubles led to that, 2) code word for forced suicide. Deposed Han empresses always "died of grief" after losing power and moving to separate palace for example.

I'm on my phone sorry for any types and terrible grammar. I think Lu xuns exile was the right choice. If sun quan chose a successor that was weak they'd be easily controlled, like emperor bixian and cao cao. If he ended up agreeing with lu xun and unexpectedly died lu could've controlled the government and controlled all power. Reading someones mind is impossible so even if lu was loyal he could've just as easily been bidding his time to rake over.

If sun Quan chose one group over the other the government would've been split and internal problems would've occurred. The art of war promotes discipline and lu xuns actions were in my eyes incorrect. The successor to sun Quan was a family affair he shouldnt have ever been apart of. He should've followed his lord faithfully until Quan asked for his opinion. If he didn't punish lu xun it would've promoted the idea of a general being unfaithful! How could he be able to maintain military and state discipline without
properly disciplining and rewarding the men?


If Sun Quan believed Lu Xun was a threat to his power, Lu Xun would have never been guardian to Sun Deng.

Lu Xun was Prime Minister while the heir issue had become an affair of state as it tore the court apart and was endangering the kingdom, Lu Xun was acting to shield Sun Quan's designated successor and the state. Given it was Quan's family it was a little murky as to where the line was, but Lu Xun had a case for interfering. How Sun Quan handled it was very much up to him, there was no hard and fast ruling that says Quan had to stop Lu Xun and Wu would not have been endangered if Lu Xun had been listened to.

Proper rewards and punishment are important (though given Quan allowed mass murder by some of his generals, Sun Quan was rather lax on that), what Quan did to Lu Xun didn't have anything to do with that.

greencactaur wrote:As for warlords being Jerks, deception is key to warfare. Out playing, maneuvering, and out smarting your enemy is the key. So lying, and distrustfulness sometimes is the best option depending on circumstances. If lu bu some how.managed to win at Xia pi he would be considered a military genius, instead of an unloyal dog. Therefore if one is capable of showing their enemy they are weak when they are actually strong or they are strong when they are actually weak, the truly can master the art of war.


I don't see the connection between executing someone for being witty/publicly humiliating a loyal adviser and being a cunning warlord who uses deception.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14457
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved