Who Was Best: Zhuge Liang, Lu Xun, or Sima Yi?

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who is better lu xun or zhuge liang

lu xun
9
16%
zhuge liang
29
53%
sima yi
17
31%
 
Total votes : 55

Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:18 pm

This poll is lame. Of course ZGL wins. Sima Yi died shortly after he became Prime Minster, and Lu Xun didn't do crap worth mentioning. And I think Lu Xun also died shortly going into that position. This is no contest.

What you should be asking is whether ZGL or Cao Cao was a better Prime Minister.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:08 pm

Zhuge Liang was the genius of the time, how can he be compared to mere men? :wink:

Now I don't think you can say whether Cao Cao or Zhuge Liang was the better Prime Minister, it may be the same title, but everything else was quite different...

Overall both accomplished much, but as they worked against each other, things could have been much better, had Zhuge Liang joined Cao Cao...
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:15 pm

So what if they worked against each other? Sima Yi and Lu Xun aren't exactly Kongming's buddies either. We're just comparing the title of of Prime Minister. Liu Bei/Liu Shan wasn't exactly the greatest politicians out there, same deal with Emperor Xian. Yes, Cao Cao controlled the courts, but do you think Xian actually could have done anything without Cao Cao?
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:32 pm

That was my point, Cao Cao was the ruler, and the emperor just his puppet, he had all the power...

Zhuge Liang was the Prime Minister for real and he did not control Liu Bei/Liu Shan, who in fact sometimes did not listen or acted accordingly to Zhuge advice.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:00 pm

When did this become about Prime Minister rather then ability?
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Re:

Unread postby Aventador951 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:29 am

white_tiger_55 wrote:mmm well another thing zhuge liang only won 2 battles and lu xun won like 3 and zhou yu more then 4 (not really sure) then why do you still like zhuge liang ??


First of all, Zhuge Liang won practically every battle he co-ordinated since he joined Liu Bei. So how could he only have won two?
Secondly, Zhou Yu (in ROTK) didn't win 4 battles, in the book his only achievements were Chi Bi (I think).
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Re: Re:

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:35 am

Aventador951 wrote:
white_tiger_55 wrote:mmm well another thing zhuge liang only won 2 battles and lu xun won like 3 and zhou yu more then 4 (not really sure) then why do you still like zhuge liang ??


First of all, Zhuge Liang won practically every battle he co-ordinated since he joined Liu Bei. So how could he only have won two?
Secondly, Zhou Yu (in ROTK) didn't win 4 battles, in the book his only achievements were Chi Bi (I think).


Actually, Zhou Yu won multiple battles at Jiangdong historically, he was the commander in charge at Jiangxia, and he won Chi Bi and Jiangling. Four amazing victories.

Also Zhuge Liang lost almost every Northern Campaign. That's a lot of defeats.
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Re: Re:

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:42 am

Aventador951 wrote:
white_tiger_55 wrote:mmm well another thing zhuge liang only won 2 battles and lu xun won like 3 and zhou yu more then 4 (not really sure) then why do you still like zhuge liang ??


First of all, Zhuge Liang won practically every battle he co-ordinated since he joined Liu Bei. So how could he only have won two?
Secondly, Zhou Yu (in ROTK) didn't win 4 battles, in the book his only achievements were Chi Bi (I think).


Well leaving aside white_tiger_55 seems to have had a bias against Liang, he may have been referring to the historical characters. Zhou Yu won against Huang Zu, Chi Bi, Cao Ren and a few others. Zhuge Liang... well without wishing to ruin the novel character by saying to much about the historical one, let's just say Shen Ai is right.
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Re: Who Was Best: Zhuge Liang, Lu Xun, or Sima Yi?

Unread postby Zhao Yun '87 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:34 am

The Northern Campaigns aren't that easy to use against Zhuge I think. I guess you can call retreating before anything happened due to supplies a defeat, if you do that adds to how much you can use it. Other than that you have success, a commander defying orders and screwing it up, and being called back from the brink of success due to slander.

Also, don't confuse battles and campaigns. A battle is a one-off occurrence where a campaign can be composed of many battles. The first Northern Campaign ZGL succeded in at least one battle and Ma Su failed. The second he retreated before anything, was pursued and won his battle (there's 2 right there and that doesn't even start til 228). The third campaign was successful as well. The 4th he retreated before anything happened again and defeated Zhang He on his way back. The last he held off an enemy army in Wei territory his entire time there. I don't really see what leads to a claim of his campaigns and battles in the north being unsuccessful.
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Re: Who Was Best: Zhuge Liang, Lu Xun, or Sima Yi?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:35 pm

This is my reading of the historical NC's:

1st NC: Major (by Shu standards) opportunity to make gains, Zhuge Liang sends out two armies. Zhao Yun and Ma Su, the latter a controversial choice who had a mental breakdown, who both lost. Forced to retreat.

2nc NC: Attacks Hao Zhao but is unable to win, forced to retreat. Gets first victory as Wang Shuang's pursuit is defeated.

3rd NC: Not sure if there is battle but Liang grabs towns and retreats in time. Only Campaign victory.

4th NC: Supply issues force a retreat and Li Yan's lies about it see Li Yan sacked (which is where I assume your referring to with the slander). However defeat of Guo Huai, Zhang He (which I only just discovered) and then ambush of Zhang He gives him three battle victories so 4 overall. Yay!

5th NC: Sima Yi, under pressure from Cao Rui and perhaps haunted by his abysmal defence last time, holds his position ad stalemate occurs. Zhuge Liang dies and Shu retreats, with Wei Yan causing chaos.

So one very short but victorious camapign and 4 battlefield victories, two of them when in retreat and most of them in the 4th NC. He did lose 4 out of his five camapigns, the 1st and 2nd have scarred his reputation somewhat, which is a lot of camapign defeats. That isn't to say Zhuge Liang did badly, particularly after the 2nd NC, and I don't hold it against him (as I said, think whitetiger was biased) but was trying to gently point out there is a difference between novel and history Liang.
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