Cao/Xiahou Family Tree version 2.0

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Cao/Xiahou Family Tree version 2.0

Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:53 pm

Alright folks, a long time ago I slapped together a big Cao/Xiahou family tree from various sources, but it didn't include a whole lot of information other than names and lines of descent, and someone of it was undoubtedly inaccurate.

Since getting my hands on TKTK, I've decided to go back and re-do the tree, fleshing it out with as much information that I could find on everybody relevant to Cao Cao's family lines. The project is, of course, far from finished, but I've sorted out enough information that I'm ready to apply some finishing touches.

Bear in mind that the tree is just an information dump right now. It's not pretty. It's not clear and easy to read. Once I get as much information as I can, then I'm going to make it pretty, either as an image (draw lines and boxes) or as an HTML page with interactive functionality.

So, before I get into a discussion of what the tree looks like, includes, and will include, here is a link to an image file containing the tree so far:

Cao/Xiahou Family Tree (.png, 1007x4293, 676KB)

WHAT THE TREE INCLUDES
I've endeavoured to include each character's name, style name (where available), dates (exact where available, approximate where they can be extrapolated from other events), alternate names (usually if they're called by another name, even by mistake, in another source), ranks, relationships with other families, and adoption information. A basic template for one person's entry could look something like this:

KONG WEN [Zhengshu] (b. 1981, d. after 2007) a.k.a. J.C. Cawley (adopted from Xu Shu), Prime Minister of SoSZ

Spouses are placed under the main entry, spaced once, and preceeded by the word "with" (even if they didn't have children together, just for the sake of organization).

Children are placed at a full indent under their parents.

WHAT THE TREE WILL INCLUDE
With your help, and with some further research, I'd like to include more style names, hanzi names, dates associated with ranks, and the names of feifs ("Marquis of ____" instead of just "Marquis"). If there's any other information you think should be included in each entry, feel free to let me know in this thread (indicate your sources).
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:54 pm

ISSUE #1: THE SONS OF CAO JIE
Cao Jie has four sons. We know three of the brothers by their proper names: Cao Bao, Cao Ding, and Cao Teng. We also know four style names. Boxing, Zhongxing, Shuxing, and Jixing. Cao Teng, the youngest brother, is Jixing. We don't know which of the styles belongs to Bao and Ding, and we don't know the other brother's name (or which style is his).

Because of this, I've given Bao, Ding, and Teng proper entries, and placed the three style names above Teng on the list, with an asterisk to indicate that there are some redundancies.

An alternate solution would be to add an entry for the fourth, unknown brother (as "Cao ?") and list the three style names in question for each of Bao, Ding, and ? (i.e. "CAO BAO [Boxing, Zhongxing, or Shuxing]").

Which solution do you like better?

ISSUE #2: THE XIAHOU/CAO CONNECTION
Cao Song and the other Caos adopted by Cao Teng were almost certainly full-blooded brothers, or at least shared the same father. This means that Cao Cao is related by blood to Cao Hong, for example, but not to Cao Ren. Cao Song is the eldest adopted son of Cao Teng, because he is described as having inherited his feifs and ranks.

A Pei note in SGZ tells us that Xiahou Dun's father was an elder brother of Cao Song, but he wasn't adopted by Cao Teng. For this reason, I've placed Xiahou Dun's father in a senior position to Cao Song in the tree, but excluded him from Cao Teng's lineage. If the note is to be believed, this makes Cao Cao and Xiahou Dun first cousins. Meanwhile, Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan are almost certainly not first cousins, mainly because their relationship isn't described as such in the sources. I've placed Xiahou Yuan's line farther down the tree, unconnected to Cao Teng's line.

ISSUE #3: XIAHOU DUN'S SONS
In addition to Chong and Mao, Xiahou Dun has a number of unnamed sons (apparently for a total of 2 named and 5 unnamed). It is unclear to whom the grandsons, Zang, Jiang, and Zuo belong. One or more of them could be Chong's sons, but the sources aren't clear on this issue (at least to me). All we know is Xiahou Dun's line apparently ended with Zuo in 266.

ISSUE #4: CAO CAO'S MYSTERY DAUGHTERS
Sources are actually pretty good about telling us which of Cao Cao's ladies certain children belong to; however, four of his daughters can't quite be placed. The three daughters that he gave to Emperor Xian, Cao Xian, Cao Jie, and Cao Hua, and another daughter, the unnamed Princess of Anyang (who married Xun Yu's son), aren't explicitly connected with a mother. We do know that Cao Jie, the second of the three daughters given to Emperor Xian, was born in 197, and that those three were full sisters. I suspect that they were daughters of Lady Bian. The dates match up pretty well, and there was a story about how Jie cursed her brother Cao Pi for making her husband abdicate. That still leaves us hanging re: Princess Anyang, though.

For now, I've placed these four girls in their own section under "unknown Lady ?" before Cao Cao's wives and concubines are listed, at least until we get some better ideas.

ISSUE #5: REPEATED ENTRIES
Many entries appear in the tree more than once. Xiahou Yuan's children, for example, appear under his entry and under the entry of his wife, Cao Cao's sister. Similarly, inter-adopted children (of which there were MANY) appear under their biological parents and their adopted parents with appropriate notes to clarify where they belong (either "adopted from so-and-so" or "sent to so-and-so as heir").

To cut back on size and confusion, I'd like to be able to trim these down. On the final version, I'll probably just put a note under Xiahou Yuan's wife like "see Xiahou Yuan's entry", but I'm open to suggestions about how to handle the adopted kids.
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Re: Cao/Xiahou Family Tree version 2.0

Unread postby Kongde » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:20 am

Kong Wen wrote:ISSUE #1: THE SONS OF CAO JIE

An alternate solution would be to add an entry for the fourth, unknown brother (as "Cao ?") and list the three style names in question for each of Bao, Ding, and ? (i.e. "CAO BAO [Boxing, Zhongxing, or Shuxing]").

Which solution do you like better?

I am very late to this, but this thread deserves some love. I was very interested to clear up some of these issues going on. Sometimes though, we really just have to leave things up to the person viewing/reading to decide. So I think the alternate solution is the best solution.

But I do have a possible solution to your issue #3, at least partially. viewtopic.php?p=70045#p70045 Supposedly, Zizang and Zijiang (younger brothers to Mao) would be at least some of the unnamed sons of Dun.

I think we have another issue to solve not mentioned as well. Are Dun and Yuan brothers or cousins? I've heard conflicting issues on this, but I've always thought they were brothers. What is the most compelling evidence that would suggest otherwise?

To cut back on size and confusion, I'd like to be able to trim these down. On the final version, I'll probably just put a note under Xiahou Yuan's wife like "see Xiahou Yuan's entry", but I'm open to suggestions about how to handle the adopted kids.

I would just put an * at the end if they were adopted and signify that somewhere.

12 years since this post, so I don't know if you're still working on this or not but figured I'd go ahead and reply and also revive this thread in hopes of getting some answers.
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