Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated

Both were underrated
7
30%
Huang Zhong was underrated
4
17%
Yan Yan Was Underrated
9
39%
Neither was underrated
3
13%
 
Total votes : 23

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu May 20, 2010 11:44 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Only possibly superior? :P

I try not to read too much into reputations. Liu Bei clearly admired Zhang He and so did the troops in Hanzhong but on the other hand Wei never really gave him sole command, they put Xiahou Yuan, Cao Zhen and even Sima Yi over him in the later years.

I do think Xiahou Yuan is partly to blame, stretched himself too thin and risked himself when he didn't need to do so but doesn't seem like any of the Wei generals, Zhang He, Guo Huai, Cao Xiu foresaw it either


Well only possibly superior because both Guan Yu and Huang Zhong were vanguard generals at heart and i don't think we know anything else about Huang. All we know is that he was good at charging the enemy ranks. Didn't Guan Yu prove he was good in this role too when he slew Yan Liang? So i can only say that Huang Zhong was possibly superior because there just enough info about this guy. There is far more info about the other 3 tiger generals and so we can compare them accurately to Guan Yu and quite confidently say that they were superior. Considering the lack of info I can't understand why some people believe Huang was a really skilled leader and would have done well guarding a province. Where does this view come from i wonder?

Wei didn't give Zhang He sole command. Yes that's true, however, but justice isn't always done. Sometimes the more talented subordinates dont always gain recognition. Xiahou Yuan may be explained by the fact that Cao Cao owed him more. Prior to his defeat, Yuan had achieved many victories and had served for longer than He. There were no major blemishes on his record prior to Hanzhong and he was entitled to more than Zhang He. Cao Zhen was family. It could be that there was some kind of bias. Is this impossible? I don't know enough about Sima Yi to comment fully on why he was given preference but should he have been? Zhang He foresaw the ambush that led to his death but Sima Yi didn't and forced him to pursue. Zhang He's death was Sima Yi's failure.

Perhaps Zhang He was hard done by. I think that was the case and i think his death is especially sad. Isn't it a possibility that he didn't get sole command not because he wasn't good enough but rather due to unfortunate circumstances? I know examples of this in real life. There are some people in senior positions in various job sectors that have less experience and less aptitude and are even younger than the ones under them. Yet they have the higher position despite the above flaws. Perhaps Zhang He wasn't as outspoken as some of his colleagues
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: London

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 20, 2010 4:11 pm

1) Fair enough. Think the impression is partly based on novel Huang and the fact he isn't Guan Yu

2) The Sima Yi one is the only one I would query of the three picks and it amazes me that Sima Yi got a second bite of the cherry after his errors in the 4th NC.

3) Bias against him? Not in the Zhu Ling/Yang Biao way perhaps but more seems like the rulers didn't favour him as much as the three superiors. Xiahou Yuan was the obvious choice for Han Zhong but after he died, Cao Zhen and Sima Yi's appointments seem based on the ruler trusting them in a way more then they did He. Yes it is possible bias and does happen
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16704
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby Pierre Beauregard » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:57 pm

yes both were underreated but huang zhong did alot more for shu then yan yan did too.
Louisiana Tigers
User avatar
Pierre Beauregard
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:19 am

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:33 am

Pierre Beauregard wrote:yes both were underreated but huang zhong did alot more for shu then yan yan did too.


I wouldn't say alot more. Yan Yan aided in the capture of Shu by surrendering, and marching his troops to sieze Cheng Du. Afterwards Yan Yan pretty much followed Huang Zhong on the campaign on Han Zhong. was Yan Yan with Huang Zhong at Dingjun, and the charge?
Smoke, drink, relieve my stress
User avatar
mrbeate
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: GTA

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby Pierre Beauregard » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:15 am

mrbeate wrote:
Pierre Beauregard wrote:yes both were underreated but huang zhong did alot more for shu then yan yan did too.


I wouldn't say alot more. Yan Yan aided in the capture of Shu by surrendering, and marching his troops to sieze Cheng Du. Afterwards Yan Yan pretty much followed Huang Zhong on the campaign on Han Zhong. was Yan Yan with Huang Zhong at Dingjun, and the charge?


yes yanyan follow huang zhong fought and capurted, im sure yanyan was in the rear protecting from a attack behind
Louisiana Tigers
User avatar
Pierre Beauregard
Initiate
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:19 am

Re: Huang Zhong and Yan Yan Underrated?

Unread postby jiang cheng » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:24 am

I think that Huang Zhong is underrated.

His earlier exploits were not exactly known and when he served Shu, he was pretty old already. Still pretty impressive that he was able to kill Xiahou Dou. I am not sure if i remember correctly that Guan Yu pretty looked down on him when Guan Yu was told that along with Himself and Zhang Fei, he was named as five tiger general?
jiang cheng
Scholar
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:48 pm

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 8 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron