Emperor Sun Quan and King Sun Ce

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Emperor Sun Quan and King Sun Ce

Unread postby Dirt » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:42 pm

Do you think Sun Quan didn't honor his brother enough by not making him the second Emperor of Wu?
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:11 pm

There is only one room for Emperor after all.
There cant be 2 suns.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:22 pm

I think Dirt's point was that when Sun Quan took the throne, he made gave the title of Emperor to his father, but not to his older brother. I suppose, though, that Sun Quan wasn't under any obligation to make Sun Ce a posthumous emperor; ever since the Zhou dynasty rank inheritance was from father to son rather than brother to brother. Furthermore, there weren't any rules about "What to do when you declare yourself emperor"---because the traditional rules of propriety didn't expect people to declare themselves emperor anyway.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:01 am

I don't think it was meant as an intentional slight. Sun Quan may have been worried about brother-to-brother legitimacy issues, were Sun Ce to have been acknowledged as the previous emperor. It was probably just simpler and more culturally automatic to set things up the way he did.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:13 am

Ill hammer Kong Weng's point.

By making Sun Ce emperor, Sun Quan would have given a wide openning to his own brothers for the succession of Wu (as if it wasnt bad enough).
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:23 am

Antiochus wrote:By making Sun Ce emperor, Sun Quan would have given a wide openning to his own brothers for the succession of Wu (as if it wasnt bad enough).

Not only his own brothers, but Sun Ce's offspring as well.
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Unread postby Highonpawns » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:49 am

I don't think it was a slight towards Sun Ce himself, but Sun Quan did this intentionally to protect his state from succession wars, though his efforts were made in vain by his own children.
If Sun Quan had made Sun Ce an emperor, then Sun Ce's children would have a chance for the throne. Now Sun Ce only bore one son, Sun Shao, who died not long after reaching adulthood; however, he had an adopted son, Sun Shao (Yu Shao) and two son-in-laws Lu Xun and Gu Yong who had the ability and prestige to claim the throne if Sun Quan were to die young. (If Sun Quan were to die young, say fighting a tiger or killed by Zhang Liao at He Fei, I'd assume that either Sun Shao would get the throne. As Sun Quan's kids would not yet be of age. However, an unexpected death of a ruler would probably cut Wu's life very short.) Now Sun Quan didn't proclaim himself and his father emperor until after Yi Ling, but I am sure that he was constantly quelling the support of his family long before he claimed the throne. Now of course, when Sun Quan himself died, there were 5 people from the elder line that were alive at the time, Sun Kai, Sun Feng, Gu Tan, Gu Cheng and Lu Kang. Even though they were not from the closest line to the emperor, their relationship caused them harm and death/exile to the hands of Sun Quan's children.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:37 am

Antiochus wrote:Ill hammer Kong Weng's point.

By making Sun Ce emperor, Sun Quan would have given a wide openning to his own brothers for the succession of Wu (as if it wasnt bad enough).


Sun Quan outlived all of his brothers.

Sun Shao (Gongli) never could have been emperor because, although he was distantly biologically related to the Sun family, he was still not a descendant of Sun Jian. And it's highly improbable that any of Sun Ce's descendants through his daughters could have any real claim to the throne - they don't have the Sun surname. Sun Shao (not Gongli) and Sun Feng are the only two who really had a chance - and you'll find that, after Sun Xiu's death, there were people who wanted to enthrone Sun Feng anyway regardless of not being a descendant of Sun Quan.

Relatives through a female descendant almost never succeeded anyone in those days. It just didn't happen, and when it did, it was only because the original line had died out and there were no distant relatives to turn to.

I don't feel that Sun Quan intentionally slighted Sun Ce, but I feel that Sun Ce deserved the title of Emperor. Although Sun Jian did much in his life, it was Sun Ce who started Wu and got the ball rolling.

In addition, Sun Quan didn't give his other brothers any sort of title, which to me, is a bit of a selfish move. Even Cao Pi made his younger brothers princes. I understand Sun Lang not getting a position, but Sun Yi and Sun Kuang could have at least gotten a posthumous reckoning as princes.

Sun Quan does, in addition, receive criticism both from contemporaries and from historians for not honoring Sun Ce highly enough. There are plenty who criticize him for failing to live up to Sun Ce's orders: "If there is discord in the family, let not the ashes of the troublemaker mingle with those of our ancestors." Just take a look at Sun He and Sun Ba - or worse, the case of Sun Luban and Sun Luyu.

He also was criticized (granted, after his death) by an envoy from Zhuge Dan, who had come offering submission to Wu if Wu helped him rebel against Wei. The envoy noted, "Prince Huan of Changsha (Sun Ce) did much, and yet, his burial mound is much too small." Sun Quan can build lavish palaces for himself, but his brother gets nothing?

In addition, Pei Songzhi among others criticizes Sun Quan for making Sun Shao (not Gongli) only a Marquis, and that by doing so, he failed to honor his brother fully.

Had Sun Feng been made Emperor, we likely would've seen Sun Ce and Sun Shao (not Gongli) been made into emperors as well, just like Sun Hao did with his own father.
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Unread postby Kittn » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:31 am

He also was criticized (granted, after his death) by an envoy from Zhuge Dan, who had come offering submission to Wu if Wu helped him rebel against Wei. The envoy noted, "Prince Huan of Changsha (Sun Ce) did much, and yet, his burial mound is much too small." Sun Quan can build lavish palaces for himself, but his brother gets nothing?


I'm curious. I haven't seen it myself. I -think- I found pictures of Zhou Yu's burial site, but not Sun Ce's. Could the size of his (Sun Ce) site be attributed to his unexpected death though? Or would it have been appropriate for Quan to have had a better site built during his reign and moved Ce there?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:41 am

Sun Gongli wrote:In addition, Sun Quan didn't give his other brothers any sort of title, which to me, is a bit of a selfish move. Even Cao Pi made his younger brothers princes.

Even a peon of Wu had more freedom than those Wei "princes"... :(

I think it's hard to judge whether Sun Quan was slighting his brothers or not. Short of finding a clause in the laws dictating the assignment of titles to a ruler's family, Sun Quan didn't do anything wrong. Perhaps he was slighting them. Or perhaps he isn't the kind of person who stands on ceremony, and only does enough ceremonious things to get by.
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