Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang

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Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang

Unread postby jiang yun » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:21 pm

gudmorning evryone :D i've been thinking for a while now about zhuge liang. What is it exactly that made him very loyal to shu kingdom and liu bei only? What qualities did liu bei have that made zhuge liang willing to work himself to his very last bone just to fullfill liu bei's dream?
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:03 pm

You sure Zhuge Liang just doesnt have ambiton and looked out for himself?
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Unread postby Liu Gong » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:21 pm

Historically, Liu Bei plan the strategies before his death and Zhu Ge Liang only involved in millitary after Liu Bei's death. So, why Liu Bei hired a "strategist" if he does not plan any strategy at all? Liu Bei wanted to keep a "backup strategist" after his death?

Zhu Ge Liang was a Prime Minister when Liu Bei became emperor and he controls the army, but why after he died, Jiang Wan became Prime Minister but the military power goes to Jiang Wei?

What qualities did liu bei have that made zhuge liang willing to work himself to his very last bone just to fullfill liu bei's dream?

Liu Bei wanted to reunite the country by peace, while Cao Cao only show off his power by force and army, Sun Quan has no big intension other than keeping Wu out of Wei's hand.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:22 pm

Jiang Wan had military power as well

Novel wise: Liu Bei was a humane man who had searched him out, his charisma and tears plus need for help stirred the heart, Zhuge Liang a Han loyalist is won over.

History wise: Zhuge Liang was visited three times by the charismatic Liu Bei, it must have been quite an honour. Liu Bei needed a skilled civil officer who he could trust and Zhuge Liang could fill that hole, with Sun Quan and Cao Cao well established with many officers then there would be a long road for Kongming but if Liu Bei, a man of fame and ability could forge something then someone who joined now would be well rewarded
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:29 pm

Liu Bei was an experienced and talented general but he had no sense of where to focus his efforts. He was essentially flailing around from place to place. It's the difference between playing chess move by move and playing moves in advance with a determined strategy. Liu Bei was incapable of the latter.

So he needed someone who could see long term and that's what Zhuge Liang did. Later he became an untouchable civil officer but at the time I would think Liu Bei needed a visionary more than an administrator since he had next to nothing to manage at the time.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:51 am

Liu Gong wrote:
Zhu Ge Liang was a Prime Minister when Liu Bei became emperor and he controls the army, but why after he died, Jiang Wan became Prime Minister but the military power goes to Jiang Wei?



Both ZL's civil and military power was passed to Jiang Wan. When Jiang Wan died it was passed to Fei Yi. When Fei Yi died, military power was passed to Jiang Wei.

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Liu Bei is a good manager of men and can keep the loyalty of men. He had a close relationship with ZL. By serving him, ZL has an opportunity to utilise his abilities and leave a name for himself, becoming like Guan Zhong & Yue Yi that he compared himself with. If they managed to restore Han, Liu Bei would have been like Liu Xiu who restored the Han Dynasty. The only decent Liu to serve was Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:16 am

I agree with the last 3 posts- Dong Zhou, Exar and Zhilong are right.

Though Kongming was really talented, he may not have been spotted had he joined Wei or Wu, so he was more likely able to rise through ranks with Liu Bei. ZL was smart, so he could see that Liu Bei was going places, so he decided that, though it was later than Wu or Wei to "start a kingdom", it wasn't too late for Liu Bei to win fame and possibly the war.

ZL could clearly think up long term strategy, so this was important for Liu Bei at the time because, as Exar said, he needed a strong direction, instead of just wandering around with an army beating uprisings.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:06 am

Zhuge Liang was working so hard for Liu Bei because Liu Bei's dreams to become the emperor of China coincided with Zhuge Liang's dream of becoming the top civil and military official of a state (remember this guy was comparing himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi all the time). Liu Bei was the one warlord where he did not have a established advisor, Cao Cao and Sun Quan had vast mutlitudes of advisors and ZGL would probably have had to work his way from the very bottom to become recognised.
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Unread postby dwonline » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:42 pm

They loved each other! Like most did, Zhuge Liang admired Liu Bei's humility and kindness so much, and Liu Bei passed all his tests too.

They did so much together, and Zhuge Liang came along just when Liu Bei needed him. Its probably one of the most crucial points of the novel, more important than Chi Bi I reckon anyway.

Its more exciting how he helps Liu Bei escape with his flock than drowning a million of Cao Cao's troops, I think.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:56 am

dwonline Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:42 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They loved each other! Like most did, Zhuge Liang admired Liu Bei's humility and kindness so much, and Liu Bei passed all his tests too.

They did so much together, and Zhuge Liang came along just when Liu Bei needed him. Its probably one of the most crucial points of the novel, more important than Chi Bi I reckon anyway.

Its more exciting how he helps Liu Bei escape with his flock than drowning a million of Cao Cao's troops, I think


Love is too strong don't you think... I think that Zhuge Liang is a Han loyalists and saw that Cao Cao were too fierce and cruel... Cao Cao control every move of the emperor, overawes the noble, etc...

Besides Zhuge Liang's orgin was from the Xu province in which Cao Cao slaughter half of the populace during his vengeance expeditions on Tao Qian... so maybe he saw that incidents and grow much hatred inside of him...
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