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Had Sima Yi stormed into the Empty Fort...

Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:07 pm
by lanceyap
If Sima Yi were to storm into the empty fort (西城) after ZGL loss of Jieting, Shu would definitely fall much earlier.

Agree?

Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:19 pm
by Dong Zhou
It depends, if Zhuge Liang is captured or killed then Sima Yi will conquer Shu and Wu till eventually fall as Shu is unable to cope without Zhuge Liang in the novel, if Zhuge Liang escapes (which is what I guess would happen), Kongming would have slightly less fame but things continue as they did. There was always a small chance of escape if Zhuge Liang had luck on his side

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:10 am
by Lord Chuff
I agree, although I don't see how Zhuge Liange could possibly have escaped if Sima Yi had entered the fort. He would have been trapped, with hardly any soldiers to protect him or help him escape.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:19 am
by Lu Kang
Judging from a Novel Zhuge Liang perspective...


I'm sure he would have had a horse with it's engine running in the back of the fort just in case. If Sima Yi charges in, Zhuge runs out and leads them into an ambush.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:26 am
by Lord Chuff
Lu Kang wrote:I'm sure he would have had a horse with it's engine running in the back of the fort just in case. If Sima Yi charges in, Zhuge runs out and leads them into an ambush.


But he was sitting on top of the wall. How would he have made it to a horse with Sima Yi's army flooding into the city (and probably surrounding it)?
He didn't have enough troops to set an ambush though. If he did he wouldn't have needed to use the ruse in the first place.

Judging from a Novel Zhuge Liang perspective...


Just wondering, did the empty city ruse occur historically?

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:56 am
by Rakoru Hiryuu
Ma Chao, Spear of Justice wrote:Just wondering, did the empty city ruse occur historically?
No, it never happend, just like the "borrow of arrows"

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:15 am
by Sun Gongli
It did happen, except that it was actually performed by Wen Pin against Sun Quan, not by Zhuge Liang against Sima Yi.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:39 am
by Rakoru Hiryuu
But why Luo Guanzhong (sorry for the bad spelling) would steal the tactics of Wen Pin to give it to Zhuge Liang? Or it simply say that ZL used the same tactics that Wen Pin used?

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:06 am
by Tarrot
That wasn't Luo's fault. Luo worked with the sources he had. The Empty City plot was attributed to Zhuge before the novel in various plays and such. Also, Zhao Yun's recorded to have performed a similar action as well, and does so in the novel too.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:28 am
by Dong Zhou
Ma Cho, Zhuge Liang is godly in the novel, he probably have a few other tricks up his sleeve :wink:

Zhao Yun also did it on a Wei army according to one annotation to the sgz. I think LGZ was trying to make up for the errors he was forced for Zhuge Liang to make and the opera tales that had adapted the ploy to Kongming were an excellent way of making him super again.