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Liu Bei's wife (ves).

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:01 pm
by Shi Tong
God you must be bored by now and my Guan Yu related threads.

Either way, here's another.

Many have been saying how Guan Yu serving Cao Cao was wrong- he should have either sacrificed himself, or refused to work (maybe being executed for this), or just run away.

So.. if he's such a disloyal creature, why did he save Liu Bei's wife (ves)? (I cant remember if it was only 1 or 2 wives of Liu Bei he had with him).

From my point of view, he thought that Liu Bei was not definitely dead, with that in mind, he couldn't sneak away from Cao, he couldn't even refuse to work because if he did, he may be killed or imprisoned, he may risk Liu Bei's wive's lives.

He also couldn't just sacrifice himself- again they would be abandoned to Cao's whims if Guan Yu had done this.

So is it conceivable that the reason that Guan Yu stayed with Cao and served him for a while is because of his loyalty to Liu Bei and his wives?

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:39 pm
by Dong Zhou
Isn't the argument that historically, he didn't have the wives with him?

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:47 pm
by Shi Tong
Oooooh

That's a good argument.

You may as well lock the thread!!! :shock:

I did think that historically he did have them with him!

Oh well, another SGYY related balls up I suppose! :roll:

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm
by Dong Zhou
Your sarcasm has won me over :P

I don't think many doubt the novel Guan Yu's loyalty and thought you were referring to history, my bad.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:55 pm
by Shi Tong
My sarcasm has gone too far- I was referring to history because I was trying to argue that the historical Guan Yu was loyal because of the fact he kept Liu Bei's wives safe.

Of course, the SGYY Guan Yu is a god- so of course he's loyal, but my historical one keeps getting tripped up by things like- he didn't really have the wives of Liu Bei with him, and he didn't get through the 5 gates, and he was a bit of a hot head, and all that.

Oh well, another argument lost before it starts!

:lol:

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:20 pm
by Shadowlink
If you want to talk about Guan Yu's loyalty Liu Bei appointed him as Gov as Jingzhou because he was
1.Loyal
2. Knows how to use Naval warfare
3. I forgot
I found these all in this chinese program

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J46QYsU ... C&index=24
and in novel it's a obligation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucOMepNT ... AF&index=5
also Zhang Liao told him not to die....
Also Liu Bei wasnt dead so he had to seek him, either that or Cao Cao was just that great and if Liu Bei wasnt alive he would have been with Cao Cao.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:23 pm
by Tan_Binrui
If Guan Yu stationed himself in Xu Chang with Liu Bei's wives, and stood there guarding them for his Cao Cao tenure, I would agree. Since he left Liu Bei's wives in the care of Cao Cao's army, and went to fight on the front lines (where women weren't allowed), and assaulted Liu Bei's former ally under the banner of Cao Cao...

Yeah, it stacks against him.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:33 pm
by Sun Gongli
While I would have thought it would be more honorable to die, honor was not as big a deal as it may seem. Guan Yu was simply being practical, and since Cao Cao was willing to pamper and bend over backwards for him as well as allow him to rejoin Liu Bei at a later date, it was a matter of dying for nothing or living with the chance for reunion.

That being said, I don't feel that Guan Yu is as honorable as the legends say. He was honorable enough if he wanted something from you, but if not? He'd probably belittle and berate you. Why else would he feign surrender to Sun Quan just to try to save his own life? Whereas Huang Gai and Zhou Fang were willing to die when they feigned defection to Wei, when Guan Yu feigned surrender to Wu, he was merely using it as a ploy to escape. He probably didn't expect Sun Quan to actually kill him.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:55 pm
by Shadowlink
He probably didn't expect Sun Quan to actually kill him.
ow you made me laugh on that one, when did he feign surrender?

Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:29 am
by Tan_Binrui
Sun Gongli wrote:While I would have thought it would be more honorable to die, honor was not as big a deal as it may seem. Guan Yu was simply being practical, and since Cao Cao was willing to pamper and bend over backwards for him as well as allow him to rejoin Liu Bei at a later date, it was a matter of dying for nothing or living with the chance for reunion.

That being said, I don't feel that Guan Yu is as honorable as the legends say. He was honorable enough if he wanted something from you, but if not? He'd probably belittle and berate you. Why else would he feign surrender to Sun Quan just to try to save his own life? Whereas Huang Gai and Zhou Fang were willing to die when they feigned defection to Wei, when Guan Yu feigned surrender to Wu, he was merely using it as a ploy to escape. He probably didn't expect Sun Quan to actually kill him.


It seems a lot of this is novel-based, and, in that light, you have a point. In a historical light, there were no "three agreements" for Guan Yu's surrender. Rather, he was simply defeated, and captured. This is the reason his loyalty, historically, is questioned. At least, by me.

I have no idea where you got the feigned surrender. Even in the novel, Guan Yu and Guan Ping were ambushed and captured.