Deng Ai Question

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Unread postby Shi Tong » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:11 pm

Not that I doubt it, but what are your sources for this:

All of them involved fleeing, none of them involved defending the capital. Qiao Zhou rebuked them all and said fleeing to Wu would be pointless as without Shu, Wu would be defeated too - thus did Liu Shan prefer surrendering once to Wei or twice? He also argued that fleeing to the Nanman, if he was not assassinated on the way, was also pointless since they would have to bear the burden of supporting Liu Shan when they were only loyal out of circumstance in the first place. Defending was deemed pointless by Qiao Zhou since Liu Shan made no prior preparations for this. It also required a resolve that Liu Shan did not possess.


Personally I feel that Liu Shan gave up in a very poor position. Though I think he could have had a good siege and defended against Wei for a while, the chances of him being able to turn Shu around were nil at that point.

I feel he could have done something more before Deng Ai was at the gates, even up to the point where Deng Ai was thinking about an attack, but once he was there it was too late.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:38 pm

I think once Hanzhong falls there wasn't much more Liu Shan could have done. Before hand yes but once Hanzhong falls, he does try to stop Deng Ai's attack, had the commander been more willing to listen then they may even have driven off that raid.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:15 am

Shi Tong wrote:Not that I doubt it, but what are your sources for this:

Personally I feel that Liu Shan gave up in a very poor position. Though I think he could have had a good siege and defended against Wei for a while, the chances of him being able to turn Shu around were nil at that point.

I feel he could have done something more before Deng Ai was at the gates, even up to the point where Deng Ai was thinking about an attack, but once he was there it was too late.


It is mostly a summary of the court session Liu Shan held in the wake of Zhuge Zhan's defeat and Deng Ai's arrival contained in Qiao Zhou's bio.

The novel tells us that there were plenty of troops and supplies still in the capital and that Qiao Zhou was a jerk so i think alot of ppl are influenced by that.

The historical situation was similar to the fall of the Ming Dynasty. The rebel Li Zicheng only had control of Shandong and some surrounding territories. Once he laid seige to Beijing, it was defended but fell apart very soon. All the battles by the Ming elite troops had already been fought in the surrounding area and by the time Li Zicheng arrived the capital had no ability to repel them and the defences were manned by palace ennuchs. There were still troops etc in the rest of the empire but they were not there to help at that specific time. In addition, Chongzen Emperor chose not to flee to Nanjing even though it was a realistic option for him long before the rebels arrived.
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Unread postby Ma_Lin » Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:42 pm

It is mostly a summary of the court session Liu Shan held in the wake of Zhuge Zhan's defeat and Deng Ai's arrival contained in Qiao Zhou's bio.


Ah. I had been wondering the same thing as Shi Tong, as I had hoped to read for myself, but alas, Qiao Zhou's bio has not been translated on this site, and I don't have any other historical resources.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:17 am

Yeah,

Very interesting, I too would like to read it- since it throws a different light on Liu Shan.

Either way, thanks for the answer :D
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