Deng Ai Overated ?

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Gneral Deng Ai Was........

Overated.
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underated
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Deng Ai Overated ?

Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:21 pm

Well i know many people think highly of him , and while he had some good creadits , i however still think that he is overated by many .

even though he is by far better than jiang wei in somethings still he is overated and these are my points :-

1- Deng Ai had more troops than jiang wei had.

2-He had the support of sima zhao which means he has the support of the emperor while jiang wei got a lazy fat emperor who wast his generals life for nothing .

3-He was defending , not attacking .

4- He got helps from zhong hui .

5- He was not called back during his fights .

6- met a very shamfull end for a man who destroyed a kingdom, i mean if he was strong and has a strong reputation he wont be killed like this .


Iam not saying that jiang wei was better but iam begining to think that jian was the better man ....


now what do you think ?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:00 pm

1- Deng Ai had more troops than jiang wei had.


Deng Ai had to beat what was he put in front of him, don't blame him for that. It is the way he did it that wins so many people's favour, brilliant tactics and great leadership were shown throughout his career.

2-He had the support of sima zhao which means he has the support of the emperor while jiang wei got a lazy fat emperor who wast his generals life for nothing .


Liu Shan gave Jiang Wei his full support, even admonishing Huang Hao in Jiang Wei's favour, just curious as to why you call Liu Shan fat, he probably was but just wondering if you know something I don't. It is hard when your lord doesn't back you but some make sure to gain support of their lords, others like Deng Ai and Jiang Wei are lucky to have support

3-He was defending , not attacking .


So Deng Ai decided to stay on the defence till the time was right rather then waste troops? It that really a fault? Also how did he conquer Shu without attacking?

4- He got helps from zhong hui .


During one campaign, fellow generals do tend to support each other.

5- He was not called back during his fights .


Neither was anyone else I can think of historically.

6- met a very shamfull end for a man who destroyed a kingdom, i mean if he was strong and has a strong reputation he wont be killed like this .


The Jin court was full of petty rivalry and there was someone who took advantage to execute Deng Ai. Now when people admire Deng Ai, it is for military exploits and brilliant civil work, not for his arrogance or his political ability of which he had none. Unless you find people saying Deng Ai was good at political stuff, not sure how pointing out that a brilliant general and civil officer was poor at court play shows him to be overrated as a brilliant man in his spheres.

Iam not saying that jiang wei was better but iam begining to think that jian was the better man ....


Ok, Jiang Wei was fame hungry according to some historians and left his own mother behind, refusing to return at her pleading and neglected some of his duties. How does this make him a superior man to Deng Ai? Incidentally, points 5 and 6 also suit Jiang Wei only without the destroying a kingdom in a good way part
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
1- Deng Ai had more troops than jiang wei had.


Deng Ai had to beat what was he put in front of him, don't blame him for that. It is the way he did it that wins so many people's favour, brilliant tactics and great leadership were shown throughout his career.


i said that because some people dont put that i mind while comparing him to jiang wei .

2-He had the support of sima zhao which means he has the support of the emperor while jiang wei got a lazy fat emperor who wast his generals life for nothing .

Liu Shan gave Jiang Wei his full support, even admonishing Huang Hao in Jiang Wei's favour, just curious as to why you call Liu Shan fat, he probably was but just wondering if you know something I don't. It is hard when your lord doesn't back you but some make sure to gain support of their lords, others like Deng Ai and Jiang Wei are lucky to have support


what support did liu shan gave to jiang wei ??
[
3-He was defending , not attacking .


So Deng Ai decided to stay on the defence till the time was right rather then waste troops? It that really a fault? Also how did he conquer Shu without attacking?


yes it is a fault as you said his army was stronger and more than jiang wei , he has many advantages still he made no attack ? then how can you consider him that great while he was not tested in offinsive battles, do you call his taking of cheng du an attacking , well that was an easy one and could not be happened without zhong hui,s help .
4- He got helps from zhong hui .


During one campaign, fellow generals do tend to support each other.


iam not going against that , but people must know that zhong hui,s help led to his victory .

[]
5- He was not called back during his fights .


Neither was anyone else I can think of historically. [/quote]

alright :wink:
[]
6- met a very shamfull end for a man who destroyed a kingdom, i mean if he was strong and has a strong reputation he wont be killed like this .


The Jin court was full of petty rivalry and there was someone who took advantage to execute Deng Ai. Now when people admire Deng Ai, it is for military exploits and brilliant civil work, not for his arrogance or his political ability of which he had none. Unless you find people saying Deng Ai was good at political stuff, not sure how pointing out that a brilliant general and civil officer was poor at court play shows him to be overrated as a brilliant man in his spheres.[/quote]
it doesnt need a political ability ,to stay alive , it seems that wei-jin thought lttle about deng,s victory which means it wasnt that great .

[
quote]Iam not saying that jiang wei was better but iam begining to think that jian was the better man ....


Ok, Jiang Wei was fame hungry according to some historians and left his own mother behind, refusing to return at her pleading and neglected some of his duties. How does this make him a superior man to Deng Ai? Incidentally, points 5 and 6 also suit Jiang Wei only without the destroying a kingdom in a good way part[/quote][/quote]

is it shamfull end if did not agree about your defeat and had aonother plots but get killed ???
well better than dying after spending years to fight and then get captured and excuted like that .
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:15 pm

1- Deng Ai had more troops than jiang wei had.


In which campaign and according to what source?

yes it is a fault as you said his army was stronger and more than jiang wei , he has many advantages still he made no attack ? then how can you consider him that great while he was not tested in offinsive battles, do you call his taking of cheng du an attacking , well that was an easy one and could not be happened without zhong hui,s help .


Deng Ai was not in a position to dictate the state's military policy so that criticism is unfounded. In any case, that Wei could undertake successful defensive operations against Jiang Wei was in a large part due to Deng Ai's suggestions for agriculture so that an army could be well supported. It also enabled the final offensive against Shu - every attack on Shu previously had run into supply difficulties.

Reckless use of force is inferior to the accurately and sparingly using it. Jiang Wei attacked all the time but achieved very little but cost the state alot.

Deng Ai was superior to Zhong Hui in this campaign. Zhong Hui had reached a stalemate with Jiang Wei and was about to retreat. It was Deng Ai that was able to break the stalemate and his surviving soldiers that made it past the cliff was not going to have numerical superiority. Zhong Hui actually impeded the campaign by scheming against his fellow commanders. Zhong Hui could have been replaced by someone else to the same effect, Deng Ai would have been much harder to replace.

Even when Deng Ai is defending against Shu, it is obvious his military acumen and analysis of situations is far superior to his peers.

6- met a very shamfull end for a man who destroyed a kingdom, i mean if he was strong and has a strong reputation he wont be killed like this .


Scipio beat Hannibal but his political career was nothing special. Han Xin was the best commander of his time yet he did not die on the battlefield but to a ruse. Not being an expert in a certain field does not retract from your expertise in your particular specialisation.

it doesnt need a political ability ,to stay alive


Look at the lengths Wei Guan had to go to, to survive against Zhong Hui's plotting and i think you will agree it was nothing short of amazing. After a distinguished career in Jin he still died but his wits and ability in political power play were stil exceptional.

it seems that wei-jin thought lttle about deng,s victory which means it wasnt that great .


Once the three kingdoms were set up, commanders were said to have done well if they captured a town here or there or exacted a good defeat on an enemy. For decades the stalemate remained in place and Deng Ai was the only one to have broken it, granted some of his victory was handed to him by the incompetent defence but he still displayed a rare brilliance.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:29 pm

i said that because some people dont put that i mind while comparing him to jiang wei .


I also take into account that Jiang Wei initiated these contests which if he was indeed outnumbered was silly in my view. With the situation at home as well, it was very very silly.

what support did liu shan gave to jiang wei ??


Forcing Huang Hao to apologise, complete control of the army, willing to allow campaigns and anything Jiang Wei wanted like changing the defences

yes it is a fault as you said his army was stronger and more than jiang wei , he has many advantages still he made no attack ?


Hanzhong was the reason for no attack for years, the other was a full on invasion (which you need to get past Hanzhong) , Weialso needed Wu to remain quiet. Hanzhong was, attacking from the east, near impossible to take, Cao Cao only got it due to a fluke fog and then when Shu took it, any attempts to take it back never ended well. A bit of rain could ruin the campaign, Shu could just hold the place with a few thousand men with ease as Wang Ping did against an army of 100,000.

When Jiang Wei changed the defences, it allowed the three armies of Wei a chance, Wu was as I understand it rather weak at the time so didn't need to worry about that either. The Jin court was right to wait till a chance came rather then recklessly attack.

then how can you consider him that great while he was not tested in offinsive battles, do you call his taking of cheng du an attacking , well that was an easy one and could not be happened without zhong hui,s help .


You mean the Zhong Hui whose contribution was drawing with Jiang Wei and thinking about retreating? Your going to have to justify how he actually helped the campaign to any meaningful extent. Deng Ai played a key part in taking Yue Jia. It was Deng Ai's army who forced Jiang Wei to retreat to Jie Gie thus allowing Wei to take Hanzhong, led his army through perilous terrain and by proper use of officers, defeated Zhuge Zhan's army. Quite a good achievement attacking personally


it doesnt need a political ability ,to stay alive , it seems that wei-jin thought lttle about deng,s victory which means it wasnt that great .


Wrong end of the stick I think. Deng Ai's prestige after forcing Shu's surrender was great and his plan to invade Wu would have got him more prestige if it worked, Deng Ai was popular with the people and the troops, he was intelligent and skilled, if he should rebel he could well seize Shu and Hanzhong. So they sent one of the best political minds to deal with the matter and to reign Deng Ai in as the guy got into a huff. Deng Ai in the end gave his enemies enough rope to hang him with, his arrogance clouded his thoughts and he was politically outmanoeuvred from first to last

is it shamfull end if did not agree about your defeat and had aonother plots but get killed ???
well better than dying after spending years to fight and then get captured and excuted like that .


Defeated by a politcal genuis after petty rivalries soon after conquering a state (Deng Ai) or a defeated general who launched a haired brain scheme that was ended because the troops and the people hated him (Jiang Wei.) Neither a glorious death but think Deng Ai's looks better
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Unread postby Ma_Lin » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:30 am

Is Deng Ai overrated? By some people. He was certainly a capable officer and had a good record, but never really faced the kind of situations that would allow himto demonstrate true "genius." He faced an enemy with far fewer resources and skilled men than his own Jin in Shu, and was killed before he got another big chance. He was certainly a talented general, but I don't think there is enough evidence to say he is a genius, or one of the greatest in the 3K period, as some have attested.

THe other thing that always comes up is the comparison with Jiang Wei. I personally like Jiang Wei(and disagree with Dong Zhou about his personality, I think he was geniunely loyal to Shu and a talented general, but lacked long term vision and was a poor CiC.), but the fact of the matter is that Deng Ai won and Jiang Wei lost, and so who was the better general? The only evidence we have supports Deng Ai, even if they never really fought on equal footing.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Ma_Lin wrote:Is Deng Ai overrated? By some people. He was certainly a capable officer and had a good record, but never really faced the kind of situations that would allow himto demonstrate true "genius." He faced an enemy with far fewer resources and skilled men than his own Jin in Shu, and was killed before he got another big chance. He was certainly a talented general, but I don't think there is enough evidence to say he is a genius, or one of the greatest in the 3K period, as some have attested.

THe other thing that always comes up is the comparison with Jiang Wei. I personally like Jiang Wei(and disagree with Dong Zhou about his personality, I think he was geniunely loyal to Shu and a talented general, but lacked long term vision and was a poor CiC.), but the fact of the matter is that Deng Ai won and Jiang Wei lost, and so who was the better general? The only evidence we have supports Deng Ai, even if they never really fought on equal footing.


I disagree. You seem to be concentrating on only his exploits against Jiang Wei, which is much of what those who argue against him see exclusively. However, before this, he showed many examples of his genius.

Early in his career, he was sent to oversee agricultural production in Shou Chun. His ideas and developments, which were accepted by the courts, supplied the entire Wu front by easily feeding 100,000 soldiers.

Another comment on his political prowess involves the Huns. When they were gathering together in the north, the Wei court was nervous, as their northern garrisons wouldn't be able to stand against a united front. Deng Ai produced, and enacted a plan, that separated and destroyed the northern alliance without a single sword being unsheathed.

When Wu invaded Wei through Zhuge Dan's territory, Deng Ai was the one who held them back. Zhuge Dan ordered Deng Ai to garrison in a strategically unimportant place, so Deng Ai defied orders and placed his troops where he felt the enemy would march through. Sure enough, there comes the Wu army and they are forced to retreat after engaging Deng Ai.

When Deng Ai was still a subordinate to Guo Huai and Chen Tai, he continually countered their plans with his own, and they would constantly accept his proposals, which ended in great successes against Jiang Wei's earlier campaigns.

When the Wei court was arguing about whether they should care about Jiang Wei anymore, Deng Ai gave his argument, which supporting facts, that made them realize that more campaigns would be held. And they were.

At Duan Gu, Deng Ai and Jiang Wei met face to face, with Jiang Wei hoping for reinforcements to arrive and flank the Wei general. What's interesting here is that I've seen no mention of one having more numbers than the other, simply that Deng Ai beat Jiang Wei, and Jiang Wei was depending (foolishly) on reinforcements.

Jiang Wei exercised a number of gambles, including the aforementioned disaster at Duan Gu, and all of them failed. His defense of Han Zhong is another example.

Where Deng Ai gambled, in comparison, he found victory. He placed his small contingent against the entire Wu army and won. He marched his 10,000 soldiers into the heart of Shu and won.

His strength in the courts, as well, was interesting. Remember that the only reason that the Wei courts arrested him was because Zhong Hui spread rumors that Deng Ai was going to rebel. The entirety of Shu, and most of Wei, loved and supported Deng Ai. This rumor would certainly bring fear to the Wei courts, and those foolish enough to think him selfishly ambitious simply decided to discard the "threat". It was, by no means, because Deng Ai lacked political ability. He displayed his prowess earlier in his life through his interactions with Sima Yi. No, his death was because Zhong Hui manipulated the courts in a way Deng Ai would not. It was underhanded, and perhaps more of a gamble, but it was not by greater ability.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:02 pm

It was, by no means, because Deng Ai lacked political ability. He displayed his prowess earlier in his life through his interactions with Sima Yi.


Getting aquianted with someone and impressing your talent is not political for me and that is all he seems to do. After he took Shu, his name now sure to be known throughout the land, popular with the men in a land easy to defend and Deng Ai makes immediate plans for him to launch an attack when a memorial praising the Sima's may well have been the better plan, look to calm fears and show you are a loyal servant. When his plan was rejected, he managed to make clear that he was very unhappy with it so giving his enemies a chance to slander him then "escaping" the cart was not the best thing he could have done either.
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Unread postby Ma_Lin » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:55 am

Early in his career, he was sent to oversee agricultural production in Shou Chun. His ideas and developments, which were accepted by the courts, supplied the entire Wu front by easily feeding 100,000 soldiers.

Another comment on his political prowess involves the Huns. When they were gathering together in the north, the Wei court was nervous, as their northern garrisons wouldn't be able to stand against a united front. Deng Ai produced, and enacted a plan, that separated and destroyed the northern alliance without a single sword being unsheathed.


I wasn't really considering these so much because I was concentrating on his abilities in combat. Though, I do find it interesting that people assume from his demise that he lacked political skill. These achievements, along with much of his advice, involved his being accurately able to read people(such as much of his advice concerning Jiang Wei and his advice about Zhuge Ke).


When Wu invaded Wei through Zhuge Dan's territory, Deng Ai was the one who held them back. Zhuge Dan ordered Deng Ai to garrison in a strategically unimportant place, so Deng Ai defied orders and placed his troops where he felt the enemy would march through. Sure enough, there comes the Wu army and they are forced to retreat after engaging Deng Ai.


Deng Ai's bio is lacking on much information in this case, such as to who he was fighting and what size forces. Any other bios that might contain more info on this battle?

What's interesting here is that I've seen no mention of one having more numbers than the other, simply that Deng Ai beat Jiang Wei


I would assume that since Wei had more troops than Wu and Shu combined, that the government would be willing to give Deng Ai, Guo Hai, and Chen Tai troops to match Jiang Wei and then some, especially considering his militaristic nature, and the fact that Wei felt him enough of a problem to consider assasinating him. If Deng Ai was really working with an inferior force, it would speak all the more to his abilities, but it would show that someone high up was lacking in judgement. Why gamble on a shoddy defense when you have the troops, and no pressing need for all of them to be elsewhere? Certainly you need some for peacekeeping and guarding the Wu border, but there would still be strength left over.

He placed his small contingent against the entire Wu army and won. He marched his 10,000 soldiers into the heart of Shu and won.


I don't see the evidence of his "small contingent" against the "entire Wu army." I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I would just like it demonstrated.

His Shu plan was a daring plan that succeeded. It was a gamble though. Liu Shan realized that even though he could repel Ai at Cheng Du, the war would be lost in the end. I wonder though, was this move also political? He did beat Zhuge Zhan and co., but he must have realized that taking Cheng Du was unlikely, and that he infiltration was more to demonstrate a point to Liu Shan.

As for Deng Ai's demise, I will only say I don't think that it was due to a lack of political ability or status on Deng Ai's part.


Lastly, as for arguing against Deng Ai, I do recognize he was a very good general(I also think that while Jiang Wei was a good general[though some bad other things], Deng Ai was better. I think one could, with some reason, say that it is hard to tell and believe Jiang Wei was better, but it is grasping at straws), I just don't think that he was one of the greatest of the 3K period. In my opinion, those were people like Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Ce, Zhang Fei, Zhang Liao, Zhou Yu, and others who repeatedly fought seemingly insurmountable odds and succeeded. Deng Ai succeeded, and with flying colors, but the factors were generally with him.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:28 am

Ma_Lin wrote:I don't see the evidence of his "small contingent" against the "entire Wu army." I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I would just like it demonstrated.


As I have little time, I'll only respond to this. You're right. I apologize for exaggerating information I didn't have. Unfortunately, I do not have access to Zhuge Dan's biography, not Sun Jun's. However, I did find that Sun Jun "and a number of officers" were leading the army, and that the army was falsely claimed to be 100,000 soldiers. Whether this number of a blatantly false exaggeration of 10,000 or a misreading of 40,000, though, I do not know.

Also, Deng Ai's own numbers aren't mentioned, but it is shown that he is a subordinate of Zhuge Dan. This doesn't, though, mean that Zhuge Dan was involved in the defense plan. I wish I had more bios to cross reference...
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