Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:31 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Liu Biao, from all sources wasnt comparable to any capable general of the age


He wasn't a great general but he seems to have been a capable, if slow, general to the point he had a province that he expanded.

Agreed, still, he was never tested in battle, so we dont know that he took those cities himself, at the head of his Jing Army
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:37 pm

I'm inclined to give it to him as nobody else has been credited with it but fair point
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:12 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm inclined to give it to him as nobody else has been credited with it but fair point

Im not sure historians would be as focused on minor sieges when The Caolition against Dong Zhuo was on.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:07 am

When I say lightening attack I mean one swift strike through the centre of Jing, destroying Liu Biao's main army then it being a matter of cleaning up afterwards.

Not saying it would be easy but thats what I think Sun Ce would do and I believe he had the audicity to pull it off.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:27 am

Sun Fin wrote:When I say lightening attack I mean one swift strike through the centre of Jing, destroying Liu Biao's main army then it being a matter of cleaning up afterwards.

Not saying it would be easy but thats what I think Sun Ce would do and I believe he had the audicity to pull it off.

That means a pitched battle on Sun Ce's favour, i highly doubt Liu Biao or his generals would let that happen
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:48 am

If its a choice between that or him taking out Jing's main city I think they would.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:15 am

Sun Fin wrote:If its a choice between that or him taking out Jing's main city I think they would.

Sun Ce was good, but not good enough to get by Xiakou, Jiang Xia and other ports and defenses and hit Xiang Yang, unless there was years of campaigning being done.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby fly_west » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:03 am

Sun Fin wrote:If its a choice between that or him taking out Jing's main city I think they would.


Sorry, Fin, we don't disagree often, but I don't think that Sun Ce would take Jing as easily as you seem to think. He would likely win, but it would be a LOOOONG war, that in the end, wouldn't be worth it. Better to let Liu Biao eventually die or give in to corruption, or some other bad end, and take them while they are much weaker. This is most likely why the battle never took place.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby jiang cheng » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:34 am

Sun Fin wrote:When I say lightening attack I mean one swift strike through the centre of Jing, destroying Liu Biao's main army then it being a matter of cleaning up afterwards.

Not saying it would be easy but thats what I think Sun Ce would do and I believe he had the audicity to pull it off.


It can be done but no the risk is too great even for the Great Sun Ce to take.

His army at this point might not be as big and as established than Liu Biao. Liu Biao is not Liu chan. If it is Liu Chan, the chances of pulling this off is much higher. Liu Biao would get his main forces to dig back and defence while Sun Ce moves in. Another forces will cut in to blockage Sun Ce supply. Sun Ce would be likely to get struck in the central without the needed supplies and also facing the wraith of the attacks from all sides.

I suspect that he would have thought of what Sun FIn had thought. Seriously on paper it is a brillant idea but Sun Ce is a smart man and he know his priority is to secure the long run future of the Wu Empire and not to do anything wild that would destroy it instead.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:54 am

Wu's only chance of surival was to make big enough gains to still be a rival to Cao Cao in the North. Zhou Yu knew this with his attempt at the two kingdoms stratergy aftet Chi Bi.

However Sun Ce also knew that if he attacked Liu Biao whilst Cao Cao wasn't otherwise engaged Cao Cao would decimate Wu.

I think Sun Ce and Zhou Yu knew that an all or nothing battle for Jing was Wu's only chance of winning the long term war. I don't think they had any choice and I think Sun Ce had the ability to pull it off. He was a natural born conquerer, read up on his invasion of Wu, he won a few early battles and after that they couldn't wait to surrender when he offered the chance.
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