Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Fri May 21, 2010 6:56 am

Well, Huang Zu was Liu Biao's vassal in the Jiangxia commandery and a shield against the Sun faction more or less. It took the Sun faction like eight years to break this shield, by which point it was too late since Cao Cao had come down and taken Jing. And even after they broke Huang Zu they still had to get past Liu Qi.

I don't know, Sun Ce's a military genius but I just don't see him destroying a unified Jing province under Liu Biao in an offensive war.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:19 am

I find it was because Liu Biao was too well supplied, i mean every time i read something about him it says he Governed the " fertile Jing Province", maybe that would be a reason :idea: also his diplomats and officials, in biographies on his trusted advisors.. which i cant seem to name right now :oops: they are listed as " talented", "skillful" etc. also Jing was a formidably large province strethcing from Gui Yang to the top of Xin Ye i believe? its would be a hell of a long time and alot of resources to take out all of that
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby jiang cheng » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:12 am

Sun Ce is up and rising while Liu Biao already stable in the area for years. Huang Zu had given a bit of trouble to Sun Ce which he is able to overcome.

But Sun Ce is still consolidating his gains and that any big movements might excited Cao Cao. Cao Cao in a way wanted to get rid of Sun Ce but at the same time he was warily that Sun Ce would join force with Yuan Shao. He would be trapped in the middle if it is to happen.

At the same time Liu Biao is warily of threats from both Cao Cao and Yuan Shao. Whoever who win might be hungry for his land. A war with Sun Ce would drain resources and make him loses men and valuable generals.

The same thing goes for Sun Ce. Defeating Liu Biao is a possiblity but it may be a costly victory which he does not want to take that kind of risk. At least not that early. Probably he has the intention to strike later but died before it happen.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:23 pm

I disagree, attacking Liu Biao was the only plausable tactic open to him just before he died. He;d made an enemy of both Liu Biao and Cao Cao so if he attacked one the other could/would go for his land. However Cao Cao was fighting a long war with Cao Cao giving him little time to launch a big offensive into Ce's territory. So this was his best chance of tacking out Liu Biao (the guy responsible for his fathers death) and giving him slightly more even footing to face up to Cao Cao with.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Jia_Xu » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:13 am

Yea somehow I don't think Liu Biao was as weak and easy to defeat as he's portrayed in the ROTK games. He had solid control and a foundation built in Jing, while on the other hand Ce was still establishing himself in Jiang Dong. And as mongoose said, it took Quan 8 years just to break thru the first line of defense in Xiakou. And Wu didn't even capture Xiakou.

Sun Ce was surely a better military commander than Liu Biao or Huang Zu or Cai Mao, but my guess is he would have been greatly outmatched. And even if he had some success, he would have been spreading himself too thin. Had Sun Ce lived a few years longer, he might have been in a better position to take Jing.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:47 am

Yeah I understand you Jia_Xu. I don't think I underestimate Liu Biao I just view Sun Ce as the best general of the era. I see him making a series of lightning attacks (like the one against Yuan Shu) that would leave Jing crumbling.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:22 am

I agree that it's absolutely a strategic necessity for Sun Ce, if he were going to attack anywhere at all, to attack Jing. I'm just not sure he would have won like he did against Yuan Shu.

Liu Biao is not bereft of good generals either. Wen Pin and Liu Bei for starters.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:19 am

Wen Pin is a good officer but I'm not sure I've seen evidence to put him forward as a top tier Commander with the likes of Sun Ce, Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, Sun Jian etc. Liu Bei would be a threat for sure but I don't know how loyal he'd be to Liu Biao... I would imagine he'd make a deal with the Sun clan to benifit them both...
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:58 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Wen Pin is a good officer but I'm not sure I've seen evidence to put him forward as a top tier Commander with the likes of Sun Ce, Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, Sun Jian etc. Liu Bei would be a threat for sure but I don't know how loyal he'd be to Liu Biao... I would imagine he'd make a deal with the Sun clan to benifit them both...

Agreed, Wen Pin was capable and above average at that, but not comparable to those you listed, unless in contrast.

Crazedmongoose wrote:I agree that it's absolutely a strategic necessity for Sun Ce, if he were going to attack anywhere at all, to attack Jing. I'm just not sure he would have won like he did against Yuan Shu.

Liu Biao is not bereft of good generals either. Wen Pin and Liu Bei for starters.

Liu Biao, from all sources wasnt comparable to any capable general of the age, And agreed, Yuan Shu wasnt as well off as Liu Biao.
Sun Fin wrote:Yeah I understand you Jia_Xu. I don't think I underestimate Liu Biao I just view Sun Ce as the best general of the era. I see him making a series of lightning attacks (like the one against Yuan Shu) that would leave Jing crumbling.


Lightning attacks? Jing was large, Biao exerted his rule from Xiang Yang, to Jiang Ling, to Xiakou. That would be alot of lightning attacks :wink: But Sun Ce would pull it off, after years of campaigning though :?

Jia_Xu wrote:Yea somehow I don't think Liu Biao was as weak and easy to defeat as he's portrayed in the ROTK games. He had solid control and a foundation built in Jing, while on the other hand Ce was still establishing himself in Jiang Dong. And as mongoose said, it took Quan 8 years just to break thru the first line of defense in Xiakou. And Wu didn't even capture Xiakou.

Sun Ce was surely a better military commander than Liu Biao or Huang Zu or Cai Mao, but my guess is he would have been greatly outmatched. And even if he had some success, he would have been spreading himself too thin. Had Sun Ce lived a few years longer, he might have been in a better position to take Jing.

Huang Zu, Cai Mao and Zhang Yun were all capable, not average like in the games, a bit better, in a sense, possibly a more than a match for Wu's generals if it took them 8years to break through the first line of defense.
Sun Ce, was bold, clever and bold, if had a little bit more time he would of had Xiakou and JiangXia while he was at it. And agreed, Liu Biao was smart when it came to buildup and such, letting his generals do the dirty work, but keeping his hands clean for the most part.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:29 pm

Liu Biao, from all sources wasnt comparable to any capable general of the age


He wasn't a great general but he seems to have been a capable, if slow, general to the point he had a province that he expanded.
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