Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

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Unread postby Tarrot » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:14 pm

We're a bunch of people who have congregated to a message board based off of our common interest in a roughly hundred year period of time in history in a country that, for most of us, is literally across the world from us. Of course serious discussion will sprout. :D
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Unread postby man_on_the_pot » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:59 pm

i think thats the first time i've ever seen anyone complain about something like that. lol
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Unread postby MXD » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:42 pm

My guess about it is that there were LOTS of internal problems to settle in Jiang Dong before Sun Ce could even think of moving an army against another force. One doesn't take a huge chunk of the territory without "brutalizing" its inhabitants and its local nobles. I think about the Lu family (which ended up being quite important for the Sun family in the end...), but there were surey some other extremely powerful families in Wu.

And leaving so few soldiers makes them vulnerable to not only Cao Cao/Chen Deng during the invasion, but to the southern tribes as well, as evidenced by one of Wu's most skilled general - He Qi - spending nearly his whole career in the South, fighting the Shanyue, or whoever was located just south of their realm. While I think the Sun clan would have been victorious over Liu Biao according to what I know, they would have been extremely overextended.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:24 am

I think that is due with the considerations of distance and strategic positions... Liu Biao's army were definitely larger than that of Sun Ce, and Liu Biao's army consists also with large navy... Though Sun Ce had better generals... To hold such distance places it will be difficult and a plain waste of resources... aside of that Liu Bioa at that time also had capable generals such as Gan Ning and Huang Zhong... The people are loyal to him... So IMO it will be very difficult to outs Liu Biao from Jingzhou... Lest Sun Ce can beat them in a swift retributions and large army like Cao Cao did...
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Unread postby Little_Phoenix » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:23 am

Lonely_dragon wrote:aside of that Liu Bioa at that time also had capable generals such as Gan Ning and Huang Zhong


agree with you about large navy but able general such Gan Ning and Huang Zhong should not be worried. Gan Ning can't use his real talent because Huang Zu never let him improve. Huang Zu always think Gan Ning as an pirate. Huang Zhong? at that era the famous general that Liu Biao trusted is Cai Mao..so Huang Zhong can't be danger if wu attack.

The real problem is Sun Ce still not powerful enough. From the north the situation is unclear. Cao Cao can't be trusted. and to subdue Jing Zhou it will be hard although Liu Biao don't have an exceptional generals but the quantity of soldiers (navy) is the problem and Jing Zhou's people love Liu Biao.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:37 am

Little_Phoenix Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lonely_dragon wrote:
aside of that Liu Bioa at that time also had capable generals such as Gan Ning and Huang Zhong


agree with you about large navy but able general such Gan Ning and Huang Zhong should not be worried. Gan Ning can't use his real talent because Huang Zu never let him improve. Huang Zu always think Gan Ning as an pirate. Huang Zhong? at that era the famous general that Liu Biao trusted is Cai Mao..so Huang Zhong can't be danger if wu attack.

The real problem is Sun Ce still not powerful enough. From the north the situation is unclear. Cao Cao can't be trusted. and to subdue Jing Zhou it will be hard although Liu Biao don't have an exceptional generals but the quantity of soldiers (navy) is the problem and Jing Zhou's people love Liu Biao.


Hmm indeed Cai Mao is the one he trusts... Eventhough Huang zu didn't trust Gan Ning I'm sure he's smart enough to let him battle Sun Ce's army... about Huang Zhong hmm... he's a veteran general so most definitely Cai Mao would use him to expel any invasion...
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Bai Mei » Wed May 19, 2010 9:39 pm

If Sun Ce had attacked Jingzhou, even if he didn't lose a lot of troops taking on an enemy basically equal in number and resources (albeit inferior in overall quality), he wouldn't have been able to do it in a short enough time that Cao Cao, Liu Zhang, or someone else couldn't just swoop in on Yang and take advantage of the absence of just about every soldier in the South Land (which is pretty much what Sun Ce would have needed to take Jingzhou). Of course Sun Ce WOULD have won in a battle against Liu Biao. But would it be a good idea to make both regions so vulnerable? No, it wouldn't have. Even if he's not a good commander, even if he's ridiculously indecisive, Liu Biao still has very considerable resources at his disposal, which would still have made it a tough fight for anyone weaker than Cao Cao.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed May 19, 2010 9:48 pm

Bai Mei wrote:he wouldn't have been able to do it in a short enough time that Cao Cao, Liu Zhang, or someone else couldn't just swoop in on Yang and take advantage of the absence of just about every soldier in the South Land (which is pretty much what Sun Ce would have needed to take Jingzhou)


I don't think Cao Cao or Liu Zhang was in a position to attack. Cao Cao having a war with Yuan Shao and his sons in the north can't take any risks. Liu Zhang, well he could invade but its not too probable. Liu Zhang was still having trouble with Zhang Lu, and had no or little ambition, he also lacked intelligence.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu May 20, 2010 1:13 am

Sun Ce did try to attack Liu Biao? there was a skirmish here and there. But it took the Jiang Dong faction until 208 when they could break Xiakou. And even then Liu Qi still held 10,000 elite troops in Jiangxia.


But the simple matter is whilst united under Liu Biao, the Jing faction was much stronger than the Yang province. Liu Biao commanded seven commanderies, ridiculous amounts of wealth, over a hundred thousand soldiers. Sun Ce didn't even command all of the Yang province. He commanded the Jiangdong part of the Yang province, the Jiangxi part was under Cao Cao/neutral.

The Jiangdong part itself isn't very wealthy or well populated. It's only strips of territory alongside the Yangzte. Sun Ce also had to worry about the hills Yue people which occupied geographically most of Jiangdong.
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Re: Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu May 20, 2010 5:43 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:But the simple matter is whilst united under Liu Biao, the Jing faction was much stronger than the Yang province. Liu Biao commanded seven commanderies, ridiculous amounts of wealth, over a hundred thousand soldiers. Sun Ce didn't even command all of the Yang province. He commanded the Jiangdong part of the Yang province, the Jiangxi part was under Cao Cao/neutral.

The Jiangdong part itself isn't very wealthy or well populated. It's only strips of territory alongside the Yangzte. Sun Ce also had to worry about the hills Yue people which occupied geographically most of Jiangdong.


Didn't he fight against Huang Zu?

I'm inclined to think a smaller force under Zhou Yu to occupy Yang could deal with the hillmen. Maybe aided by Taishi Ci as he had fled to the hills after Liu Yong's death. Cao Cao was fighting it out with Yuan Shao and Liu Zhang was never in a position to attack Yang. If anything he would have attacked Jing from the other side!

Meanwhile Sun Ce would have destroyed Liu Biao IMO. Liu Biao wouldnt have led a large force to confront him, his far too cautious and the fear of attack from another force. Leaving Bofu the choice of taking Jing city by city or swiftly destroying Liu Biao's powerbase and hoping the power's will defect to him after. I'm inclined to think he'd do the 2nd and he has the ability to pull it off!
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