Oddities. How come Sun Ce never attacked Liu Biao?

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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:05 pm

Remember Liu Biao conquered Jing while starting with only two men, his not attacking Cao Cao was due to many reasons but doesn't really reflect military ability to withstand an attack and it took many victories over Huang Zu before Quan really took land. I would say Sun Ce would win but it won't be a walkover, it would have to be time right as well to avoid leaving Wu in danger.

As for Liu Zhang, he crushed rebels, his armies fought Liu Bei for 3 years, he had battles with Zhang Lu I believe and his troops were involved in raids or Jing or something like that, Shu and Jing didn't like each other much. Liu Zhang was incompetent but wouldn't say he would ignore too big an opportunity
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Unread postby man_on_the_pot » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:19 pm

you guys say leaving Wu in danger, but Cao Cao and Sun Ce had good relations i thought?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:42 pm

They had an alliance but it was not too friendly and Cheng Deng was trying to create trouble for Ce
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:07 pm

I believe that even in LGZ's original copy Sun Ce's accomplishments were always just quickly done as to keep up with the rest of the story, however Mao probably subdued it more. Mao definately hyped up Liu Bei to be the hero and Cao Cao the villian much more so it wouldn't be unlikely for him to either intentionally or unintentionally minimize Sun Ce's role in the period.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:24 pm

man_on_the_pot wrote:you guys say leaving Wu in danger, but Cao Cao and Sun Ce had good relations i thought?


You'll recall that at one point, Cao Cao also had good relations with Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, and Lü Bu. Cao Cao could easily invent a reason to attack a vulnerable Sun Ce, some of them legitimate, some of them not.

In addition, Chen Deng of Xuzhou was causing problems for Sun Ce by making contact with various bandits and causing them to rise up. Chen was Cao Cao's subordinate, so either Cao Cao didn't know about Chen's subterfuge or silently approved of it.

Cao Cao had, earlier, sent Chen Yu to "supervise" Sun Ce during the battles against Yuan Shu, but Sun Ce knew that Chen Yu was really just sent there to cut off his support base and sent Lü Fan to repel him. Chen was defeated and fled to Yuan Shao in humiliation.

Chen Yu was Chen Deng's cousin. Coincidence?
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Unread postby Zeche » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:08 am

Lu Kang wrote:I believe that even in LGZ's original copy Sun Ce's accomplishments were always just quickly done as to keep up with the rest of the story, however Mao probably subdued it more. Mao definately hyped up Liu Bei to be the hero and Cao Cao the villian much more so it wouldn't be unlikely for him to either intentionally or unintentionally minimize Sun Ce's role in the period.


Kind of off topic but... who do you mean by Mao?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:51 pm

Mao Zhong Gang- made LGZ's work more pro Shu
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Unread postby jiang cheng » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:28 am

Sun Ce can win indeed but not a total victory.

Sun Ce was rising too fast. Cao Cao been Cao Cao would sit up and look at Sun Ce. To put himself into a fruitless campaign would have spell disaster for him as Cao Cao could not tolerate anyone who would be a threat to him in the future and defintely that Sun Ce is someone whom he want to get rid of if he has a chance. Cao Cao Know that and so does Sun Ce. Sun Ce may be young and brave but he is no fool to put himself in that situation.

After Guan Du, Cao Cao forces even through won was still tired and that the Yuan are far from finish yet. It give them some breathing space. To head on with Sun Ce is defintely not what he want but if SUn Ce was in a bad position, he dont mind take that risk. Oh yes history might have change.
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:51 pm

Boy, you guys really over analyze things. I just brought it up cause I thought it was funny. I just thought they forgot about it and didn't include it. It's still just a story. We're not analyzing what really happened. I mean, they could have went and said Liu Biao pulled a groin muscle and Sun Ce took the opportunity to attack him.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:04 pm

I don't think forget as in decided not to include it because anything not Wei-Shu related doesn't matter :P If you put a question or a topic in the SGYY expect a serious answer and sometimes debates spiral off from that, I don't think it is too fair to say we over analyse things, this is a fun loving but serious board from my experience, you should expect this kind of thing here.
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