Who was with Guan Yu in Jing Zhou?

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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:42 pm

So if a kid attack me I should complain to his mother no? the kid does not stand for Shu, the mother does.


would it take months for you to get to the mother and complain by which time the situation may well change?

I dont get why it's alway about Guan Yu! why do they alway go to jingzhou and talk to Guan Yu!


1) A lot closer
2) He is the guy that can sort things out without it taking all year just for diplomats to get across and messengers to be sent
3) Expediency
4) I don't think they trusted Liu Bei much either
5) I think Guan Yu could just ignore the commanders if felt they were fake or just ignore them anyway on commander in the field rule

Guan Yu is not the "Man"... Liu Bei is... why doesnt Wu realize it's pointless talking to him?!


Who has control of diplomatic, civil and army affairs in Jingzhou? Guan Yu. If it was about Shu attacking from Cheng Du or some other non Jing subject, they would go to Liu Bei

Liu Bei gave back the districts! not Guan Yu! (lu su did it)


Liu Bei was in Jing at the time due to the war

So they were plotters through and through


So is Liu Bei :wink:

therefore Shu are just as stupid in relations with Wu as Wu are.


For so many reasons, I agree with this
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:04 pm

Guan Yu has no authority to give out and form alliances. He cannot make deals or anything, that is like Wu going to Zhang Ba in Xu (or who ever controlled that province) to make a deal with Wei because he as closer, or make a deal with Cao Ren in northern Jing. These people while controlling the province had no authority over diplomacy, it was the same as Guan Yu.
If Wu wants to make any deals with anyone in Shu they have to go to Liu Bei, they personal like of him is meaningless, no deal they make with Guan Yu would apply to Liu Bei while any deal with Liu Bei applies to Guan Yu. Guan Yu might be closer but he is not in charge, Wu might as well be talking to Shi Ren or Mi Fang....oh wait they did :wink:
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:15 pm

True, to get land back and form alliances go to Liu Bei, for dealing with raids fro Jing and organising attacks with Jingzhou troops then they can go to Guan Yu I believe?
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Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:17 pm

Meh, they wanted Jing all along, but they needed the excuse to invade it. An excuse that Guan Yu, as the gentleman he is, gave them, since I dont consider Sun Quan stupid enough to invade an ally only because of a bruised ego.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:06 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:True, to get land back and form alliances go to Liu Bei, for dealing with raids fro Jing and organising attacks with Jingzhou troops then they can go to Guan Yu I believe?


Yes, for border raids then they complain to Guan Yu. As they had no intention of ever complaining since they were already on their way to invade it didn't matter in the end. That is one of the main reasons why i doubt the validity of the raid, they were getting ready to invade the plan was set and in motion, it is very convenient for a raid to take place right as they were about to march. Especially since Guan Yu had never shown to be willing to set troops against Wu previously. Hell even during the invasion of 215 he set up his defenses and waited for Liu Bei, now suddenly he starts raiding supply depots? I just don't buy it, Wu had too much at stake, they were going to invade even if Guan Yu was a perfect neighbor.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:30 pm

Perfect neighbour? I don't think they would have because they would then feel they could rely on Shu and not be so paranoid but yes, the raid was just an excuse to invade. While I doubt Guan Yu ordered the raid, I think it did happen, a rare time when someone would be happy for that to happen, it was probably some minor idiot seizing a chance so he could supply Guan Yu and Wu of course built it up for all it was wrorth
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:12 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Yes, for border raids then they complain to Guan Yu. As they had no intention of ever complaining since they were already on their way to invade it didn't matter in the end. That is one of the main reasons why i doubt the validity of the raid, they were getting ready to invade the plan was set and in motion, it is very convenient for a raid to take place right as they were about to march. Especially since Guan Yu had never shown to be willing to set troops against Wu previously. Hell even during the invasion of 215 he set up his defenses and waited for Liu Bei, now suddenly he starts raiding supply depots? I just don't buy it, Wu had too much at stake, they were going to invade even if Guan Yu was a perfect neighbor.


You doubt the validity of the raid on mere speculation itself while entirely disregarding the text of SGZ. In order to truely cast doubt one must provide evidence against it, rather than what one suspects. You assume that the raid was the excuse to invade, it was not. The raid, while providing a nice rallying cry, was merely proof that they were right. They said that Guan Yu could not be trusted and he proved them correct. Several officers of Wu thought that Guan Yu could not be trusted on the border and he proved that. Did they launch a pre-emptive strike? You bet. By the time they launched not only were their concerns proven true, but they didn't have to wait for something worse to happen.

They were not going to invade Jing if Guan Yu, and more importantly earlier, Liu Bei had been good neighbors. Prior to the 215 invasion, Sun Quan harbored no intent to forcibly take any part of Jing from Liu Bei. After there was of course a lack of trust from either party ---for obvious reasons--- and thus there was less resistence to a plan to attack Jing, but even then the reasoning still wasn't just "We need this land". While that was a nice supporting arguement, the key point was the threat presented by Guan Yu, both directly and indirectly. Guan Yu was an incapable general defending Wu's backdoor and he couldn't be trusted. If you put Zhuge Liang in Guan Yu's position, the invasion of Jing in 219 never happens. Guan Yu is the reason Jing was invaded on just about every level.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:11 pm

situation may well change?
yes... I complain about alot of stuff but that is life, I complain about my fafsa which takes forever to process and I have to travel to Staten Island from Manhattan which takes forever but I did it, I went over there, I waited a while for good things to come and Bang! there I have it! My Aid is processed and everything is done! :D .
Do I talk to the boss when I need stuff done or a employee with no power? Just like a toy... a kid is playing with the toy and I want it, I ask the teacher and they ask us to share.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:09 pm

Lu Kang wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Yes, for border raids then they complain to Guan Yu. As they had no intention of ever complaining since they were already on their way to invade it didn't matter in the end. That is one of the main reasons why i doubt the validity of the raid, they were getting ready to invade the plan was set and in motion, it is very convenient for a raid to take place right as they were about to march. Especially since Guan Yu had never shown to be willing to set troops against Wu previously. Hell even during the invasion of 215 he set up his defenses and waited for Liu Bei, now suddenly he starts raiding supply depots? I just don't buy it, Wu had too much at stake, they were going to invade even if Guan Yu was a perfect neighbor.


You doubt the validity of the raid on mere speculation itself while entirely disregarding the text of SGZ. In order to truely cast doubt one must provide evidence against it, rather than what one suspects. You assume that the raid was the excuse to invade, it was not. The raid, while providing a nice rallying cry, was merely proof that they were right. They said that Guan Yu could not be trusted and he proved them correct. Several officers of Wu thought that Guan Yu could not be trusted on the border and he proved that. Did they launch a pre-emptive strike? You bet. By the time they launched not only were their concerns proven true, but they didn't have to wait for something worse to happen.

They were not going to invade Jing if Guan Yu, and more importantly earlier, Liu Bei had been good neighbors. Prior to the 215 invasion, Sun Quan harbored no intent to forcibly take any part of Jing from Liu Bei. After there was of course a lack of trust from either party ---for obvious reasons--- and thus there was less resistence to a plan to attack Jing, but even then the reasoning still wasn't just "We need this land". While that was a nice supporting arguement, the key point was the threat presented by Guan Yu, both directly and indirectly. Guan Yu was an incapable general defending Wu's backdoor and he couldn't be trusted. If you put Zhuge Liang in Guan Yu's position, the invasion of Jing in 219 never happens. Guan Yu is the reason Jing was invaded on just about every level.


Same old song and dance really now, come on.

Did i say that the bio was wrong and no one should believe it? No i didn't, i said that i personally don't believe that it happened. Yes i am allowed to question portions of the text without saying that the entire text is invalid, we know for a fact that SGZ isn't 100% accurate bios contradict each other in many places. I say my thories are just that, theories, i never declare that they are fact, and since i am not trying to prove fact and i am simply exchanging theories with someone i don't need to find text to support me, if i was trying to tell Dong Zhuo that i was right and he should believe what i say as fact i would type my messages in a similar way that you do.

Despite your bias it is quite obvious that the raid was an excuse, the plan was set in motion they were enacting Lu Meng's plan of getting Guan Yu to let down his guard before an invasion the text shows that too. It is quite plain to just about anyone who reads it that the entire invasion was planned out by Lu Meng far before Guan Yu did anything to Wu, and nothing was going to stop it. It is quite convenient that at the dawn of an invasion suddenly there is a minor raid on a supply depot which is not even on any surviving maps.

This argument is pointless because there are some things that you cannot be objective about, this being one of them. You are a very intelligent person who is fun to debate with as long as one stays away from saying anything bad about Wu as you are quite a zealot about that.
I don't claim to have any special knowledge that makes me right, that is why when i say things i specify that it is my opinion and not fact unlike some people.
You read the text and see Liu Bei manipulating Sun Quan's pure intentions and forcing Sun Quan to invade, i read the same text and see Sun Quan scared that one day Liu Bei will be stronger then him and in his paranoia breaks the alliance to stay the dominate partner. We are reading the same text and neither of us are totally right as we are both using broken incomplete information. Nothing i say will convince you other wise and i don't want to, you are free to take what you will from the text that is your right. You just have to accept that your interpretation of the text isn't the final word.
I most likely cannot even convince you that my theories are plausible hell, you won't accept Rafe's ideas if they conflict with your own how could I do better then him?

I hope that we can have a civilized discussion about things, remember we used to have interesting conversations as long as we avoided the areas where you get too defensive, i miss those conversations.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:04 am

Regardless of whether Wu was plotting against Guan Yu all along or not - which I, as a Wuist, believe they were - Guan Yu did not help his own cause one iota. While I wouldn't fault Liu Bei in the whole debacle at all (except maybe for trusting Guan Yu too much), I don't think that Jing would have fallen had someone more... I don't know. Competent? Cautious? Diplomatic? Probably all three. Regardless of Wu's intentions, Guan Yu only worsened the situation. Someone like Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei himself, Mi Zhu, etc. could probably have disarmed Wu with diplomacy. Liu Bei was, obviously, off in the west, doing important things. But leaving Guan Yu - someone who is unreasonable, proud, and arrogant - in a position of high command can only lead to disaster.

Sure, Guan Yu obviously had at least some skill, but he didn't have the right personality to be in a position of such responsibility, even with the best advisers. (What good is an adviser, who's warning you that Wu is likely to attack, when you won't listen to him?)

I fiercely believe that, had Liu Bei left the affairs of Jingzhou in the hands of someone else with Guan Yu instead acting as a subordinate, then Sun Quan would have been far less likely to attack, as someone as diplomatic as Zhuge Liang would have been able to defuse the situation. If Sun Quan still attacked, then someone like Zhuge Liang would have foreseen it and known that he was in an untenable position and take the proper countermeasures.

In short, to bring this back to the original topic: it doesn't matter if Guan Yu had had Guan Yin and Xiahou Yin and Han Xin and Xiang Yu and Sun Zi as his subordinates in Jingzhou. It was the fact that he was in charge of all affairs of the province - militarily or otherwise - that caused the province to fall.
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