How strong were Liu Biao, Liu Zhang, and Zhang Lu?

[man_on_the_pot]

I dont know very much about the strength of these 3, but i'm guessing since they were around for a while, they must have been somewhat powerful. In the games, Liu Biao is a joke to fight, his armies suck. Zhang Lu's not too much better, but Liu Zhang can be a nuisance.

[Zeche]

Liu Biao was the strongest of the three. Jingzhou was by far the richest of the 3 provinces. He also had the Kuais who were smarter than anyone Zhang Lu or Liu Zhang had. He was also able to defeat and kill Sun Jian.

[Dong Zhou]

Liu Biao was a brilliant civil officer who took a province beset with strife and with just the Kuai's, no soldiers, he took over Jing, transforming it into an amazingly prosperous and admired Region. He was strong enough to face three foes in Liu Zhang, the Suns and Cao Cao but it limited him in attack. Once he died, the postion of Liu Zong was untenable and it collapsed

Zhang Lu had the defences of Hanzhong to guard from the east and well Liu Zhang wasn't a formidable foe to the west but he was unable to expand, wouldn't call him strong. Liu Zhang was a weak leader but if he had been able to employ the best and keep men loyal, he could have been a threat.

I would go for Liu Biao

[Sun Gongli]

Sun Jian being killed in battle against Liu Biao, historically, wasn't exactly something Liu Biao can take credit for: one of his defeated soldiers got lucky with a bow and arrow, simple as that. It doesn't change the fact that his entire army folded up like a card table, and the only reason that he wasn't wiped out was because Sun Jian just happened to have been killed by some soldier.

Liu Zhang had more resources while Liu Biao had more loyal officers. Zhang Lu seems to be the most talented out of the three in my opinion: his sect rebelled around the same time as Zhang Jue, and despite not being as numerous, they lasted about twenty years longer.

Ignoring each man's ability, however, Liu Zhang's army was most likely the strongest, with the most resources and the best officers. While what Dong Zhou says about Liu Biao in regards to how he used diplomacy is correct, it's also true that Liu Biao was burdened by having Liu Zhang to the west and Sun Ce to the east, both of whom had no love for him (and both of whom Liu Biao warred against unsuccessfully).

[man_on_the_pot]

I didnt know that Liu Biao and Liu Zhang fought in war.. Was it a significant fight or more of just a skirmish or two?

[Tarrot]

It was more Liu Biao trying to take advantage of a situation. When Liu Yan died, Hu Mao, who was an inspector appointed by Li Jue & Co when they ran things, rose up against Liu Zhang, having none other than Gan Ning as one of his generals against Liu Zhang. Liu Biao acted as an instigator, and never officially declared war because Liu Zhang's success in putting down that rebellion.

Zhang Lu is very interesting. He was a religious leader who was sent by Liu Yan to attack Su Gu, but later would declare his independence in Han Zhong, though Liu Yan effectively supported it. His family was hostage as the style of the time by Liu Yan, but eventually Zhang Lu rebelled against Liu Zhang, causing his mother to get killed, and led to war where it was an effective stalemate. Contrary to popular belief, he really didn't rise up at the same time as the Turbans, he was just a religious leader who was known for eventually deposing Su Gu and his Five Grains of Rice sect.

Terms of actual strength, I'd go Liu Biao, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu. Liu Zhang using his men to his fullest potential might be able to pull ahead of Liu Biao, but Liu Zhang had an issue of trust with many of his officers, which led to frequent rebellions, which admittedly he was able to put down via his elite troops. Liu Biao pulled together the Jing province out of nothing, and while only having a few decent generals (Huang Zhong, Cai Mao, and Huang Zu come to mind), he was real good at keeping things together. Honestly, I'm uncertain if Sun Jian would've been able to take out Liu Biao even if he had lived, as I think Liu Biao had talent in leading (even if indecisive), and enough able bodied people to at the very least hold Sun Jian off. Zhang Lu, while he was stationed in a nice easily defensible region, really didn't have the manpower to expand, nor the desire to do so, and as such while he could turtle well, his forces really weren't that strong.

[man_on_the_pot]

In some of the Romance games, Liu Biao's bio says something along the lines of, "because of his indecisivness, he missed out on numerous opportunities to unite the land." Was he really that powerful? He seems like garbage to me for the most part.. militarily anyway.

[Sun Mantian]

Well he might have been but his officers and strategists were pretty good but he was content with what he had and that eventually led to him losing everything he had

[Dong Zhou]

In some of the Romance games, Liu Biao's bio says something along the lines of, "because of his indecisivness, he missed out on numerous opportunities to unite the land." Was he really that powerful? He seems like garbage to me for the most part.. militarily anyway.

He missed one chance, just the one that I can recall, when he decided not to make a move during Guan Du. Ally with Cao Cao as most wanted, he would gain an ally, attack Cao Cao as Liu Bei wanted, he may well have finished off Cao Cao. However would he have overstretch himself by such a move and could he really be at peace with the Yuans? Li Tong and Xun Yu would have put up a tough fight

[Sun Mantian]

Li Tong and Xun Yu had very few troops to put up any sort of fight and during Guan Du Cao Cao was constantly worried about the potential attack from Liu Biao.