Was it wise for Sun Quan to lend Nanjun to Liu Bei?

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Was it wise for Sun Quan to lend Nanjun to Liu Bei?

Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:37 am

Following Chi Bi, Zhou Yu and an all-star cast of Wu generals went out and conquered Nanjun from Cao Ren. This provided them with a great strategical location for launching attacks as well as defence. The region was also an economic power house, with three major rivers running through it. It also provided a population that was roughly 1/3 the size of Yangzhou, thus giving Sun Quan the manpower he desperately needs to fend off Cao Cao.

Obviously, as the text show, Sun Quan lent this land to his ally Liu Bei. Now the question is was this wise?

More specifically was it wise at the time and even in hindsight was it wise?

I'll post my thoughts on the matter a little later.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:58 am

Was this the deal done during Lu Su's time when Zhou Yu died or earlier?
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:26 am

What did he intend when he "lent" Nan Jun to Liu Bei?

It would have been unwise if there was no advantage for Sun Quan.
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Unread postby Zeche » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:02 pm

Well the only advantage I see is that Liu Bei+Sun Quan would fair better against Cao Cao than Liu Zhang+Sun Quan.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:45 pm

dong zhuo wrote:Was this the deal done during Lu Su's time when Zhou Yu died or earlier?


This is the deal after Zhou Yu died.

Shi Tong wrote:What did he intend when he "lent" Nan Jun to Liu Bei?

It would have been unwise if there was no advantage for Sun Quan.


The reason to lend Nanjun to Liu Bei would stem from a couple mitigating factors with main one being to strengthen the alliance. By strengthening the alliance he ensures that Cao Cao's enemies are strong and united. Also when he presents himself as a good ally to Liu Bei he stands the chance to have his ally later help him out greatly. As you can see, Sun Quan worked rather hard to build up the alliance knowing that together they would be able to greatly benefit each other and give them both a better shot against Cao Cao. Of course the key word really being cooperation.
Last edited by Lu Kang on Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Tarrot » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:46 pm

Liu Bei had some fairly good generals, and had played a role in Chi Bi. While it did end up enabling Liu Bei, it didn't doom him by any stretch, and allowed him to use his generals in other areas, and use someone else as a buffer.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:14 pm

What did he intend when he "lent" Nan Jun to Liu Bei?
Dont worry he is like that. He means lend because it is really give... either way it help Liu Bei get into power.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:06 pm

I've heard quite a few people say that giving Nan Jun to Liu Bei meant that the people in that part of Jing Zhou had a powerful ruler who would stop people in that area defecting to Cao Cao, and regardless of weather or not Liu Bei would go off and do his own thing later, bolstering Cao's troops with Nan Jun soldiers would be folly too.

So I think it was wise at the time.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:46 pm

Shadowlink wrote:
What did he intend when he "lent" Nan Jun to Liu Bei?
Dont worry he is like that. He means lend because it is really give... either way it help Liu Bei get into power.


No, I meant lent as in 借[jie], just like Chen Shou did when he wrote it as such.

I've heard quite a few people say that giving Nan Jun to Liu Bei meant that the people in that part of Jing Zhou had a powerful ruler who would stop people in that area defecting to Cao Cao, and regardless of weather or not Liu Bei would go off and do his own thing later, bolstering Cao's troops with Nan Jun soldiers would be folly too.


That's an interesting idea there. I don't know if having Liu Bei in charge would neceasrily keep people from defecting. Not that Liu Bei didn't have the ability but most of these people were poor and would not actually be able to flee across the Yangtze and to the north.


Looking at the situation and facts, it's most likely that Sun Quan lent the land to Liu Bei to strengthen their alliance and increase their combined power to fight Cao Cao. By doing so he gives Liu Bei an access point to attack Cao Cao and bolsters his power. In this way both allies would be able to contribute significantly to the war effort.

At the time it certainly looks to be a wise move. While it was possible for Wu to hold Jiang Ling (and indeed gave some benefits) it was a less than ideal situation and Liu Bei would have better territory to support it. Also, giving Liu Bei access to Wei allows for joint attacks without having to cross territory and have problems associated with that.

Granted in hindsight it was probably a pretty bad choice as Liu Bei would later give nothing back to Sun Quan for the loan and actively work against him.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:09 pm

Sun Quan for the loan and actively work against him.
Yes but it worked for a while, Liu Bei was kicking ass and taking names and helping him stop Cao Cao while he try and take Hefei.
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