Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Kong Wen wrote:His reasons for not wanting to return to Liu Bei after he had been humiliated by Cao Cao and Cheng Yu are extremely complicated. :(

Could you elaborate please? :)
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Unread postby James » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:22 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Could you elaborate please? :)

Yes! Please do!

I was rummaging around looking for the juicy details myself after reading that!
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:37 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Could you elaborate please?

I just mean that the whole "salvage shred of honour in staying with Cao Cao" vs. "honour in returning to Liu Bei" has been extensively debated here before. It's hard to make sense of his motives after his mother kills herself in the novel.
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Unread postby Foif » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:44 am

Haha, i forgot about this thread...

Lonely_dragon wrote:
He truly wanted to serve Liu Bei... there is this episodes in the novel where he was sent to Fan Cheng by Cao Cao as an envoy to request Liu Bei's surrender... This was just before Chang Ban episode...

He stated that he wanted to do so only that he feared the people will ridicule him... why? He had switched allegiances to Cao Cao and if he returns to Liu Bei it would mean he had switched allegiances again... And people will talk of him as he who had no loyalty... That's why Xu Shu chose to stay with Cao Cao...

Besides he also saw that Zhuge Liang had already been employed and he felt that Zhuge is a more capable advisor than he is...


His loyalty was for his own shame, NOT for the lord. If it was, Liu Bei would've been the focal point.

And one good advisor is not enough to rule a kingdom...We see that as we go into the later years of Shu.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:06 am

Foif Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His loyalty was for his own shame, NOT for the lord. If it was, Liu Bei would've been the focal point.

And one good advisor is not enough to rule a kingdom...We see that as we go into the later years of Shu.


Judging from your point of view it is quite true... however how can Xu Shu expect other's support if he had changed allegiances twice? Other people would not only ridiculed him but questioned his loyalty... therefore he had remained with Cao Cao eventhough it was very bitter for him...

Indeed one good advisor is not enough to rule a kingdom... however too many superb advisors makes it difficult to choose actions... see Wu Zhang Zhao's and Zhou Yu's before the battle of Chi Bi...
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:51 pm

errr-- Guan Yu changed sides from Liu Bei to Cao Cao and back again.

I dont think he was seen as such a dunce in history, so I think Xu Shu could have got away with it! :wink:
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:34 pm

Shi Tong wrote:errr-- Guan Yu changed sides from Liu Bei to Cao Cao and back again.

I dont think he was seen as such a dunce in history, so I think Xu Shu could have got away with it! :wink:

Guan Yu was captured in battle. Xu Shu wasn't so much captured in battle (close!), but left of his own will after a battle. To public perception, Guan Yu wasn't "serving" Cao Cao, but for all anyone else knew, Xu Shu was. The situation is a bit more difficult for a scholar, too, because many scholars went to the capital for jobs.

In short, most people would have known that Guan Yu didn't leave Liu Bei of his own will to get a sweet job at court with Cao Cao, but that's probably what it would have looked like Xu Shu was doing.

:(
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:54 pm

I know what you mean.

Though it's pretty obvious in the novel that he's blackmailed to go.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:39 am

Yes I'm pretty sad about his leave because he was con by Cheng Yu...

Xu Shu is a very filial person that he decided to go away once he heard that his mother had been made a prisoner...

However if only Zhuge Liang was already in the serve of Liu Bei he would able to read this strategem...

There was this event at RTK VI... I was playing as Liu Bei in the three visits episode... at that time I got Zhuge Liang's event before I recruited Xu Shu... So when the event Xu Shu was summoned by his mother takes place... Zhuge Liang interceded... and said that it was only a ploy and Xu Shu stayed with Liu Bei... yay.... :D
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:24 pm

xu shu short sgz bio by su mingde

Wei Lue: Xu Shu, styled Yuanzhi, was originally named Fu and was son from the Shan family. At a young age he was chivalrous and likes swordplay. Toward the end of Zhongping [184 – 189 A.D], he avenged for someone else and is captured by the authority when he tried to escape with his hair down. When asked who he was, he gave no reply. The officials tied him up on a cart and brought him through the market to ask if people knew him, none dared to recognize him. However, his friend, Wu Gongcuan, came and saved him. After thanked his friend, Fu gave up swordsmanship and dedicated his life to scholarly knowledge. When he went to school, the scholars there heard he was a criminal and distanced themselves from him. Fu then wake up early each morning and did all the cleaning. He listened closely to the lectures and grasped other’s heart. As a result, he knew the materials inside-out and excelled in his study. He became great friends with a man named, Shi Tou, styled Guangyuan. In the middle of Chuping [190 - 193 AD], there was a lot of uprising in Zhongzhou. Xu Shu so they left for Jingzhou where they met and built a friendship with Zhuge Liang. When Jingzhou was surrendered, Kongming followed Liu Bei but Fu and Tou came north. In the middle of Huangchu [220 - 226 AD], Shi Tou was a magistrate and Dian Nong Jiao Wei. Xu Shu became You Zhong Lang Jiang and Yu Shi Zhong Cheng. In the middle of Dahe [227 - 233 AD], Zhuge Liang arrived in Longyou and heard that Xu Yuanzhi and Shi Guangyuan receive rank as such, he sighed, "Alas! Wei has many talents! Or else why were they not used?" After a few years, Xu Shu died of sickness. His epitaph is now in Pangcheng until now.

(1) Dian Nong Jiao Wei was originally established by Cao Cao to regulate the commerce of salt and iron within a specific province.

(2) You Zhong Liang Jiang, or the Right General of Imperial Guard, is in charge of a gate of the palace. They are suppose to guard the gate and serves part of the emperor’s cavalry as needed.

(3) Yun Shi Zhong Cheng was an assistant to Yun Shi Da Fu. When Yun Shi Da Fu was renamed Si Kong (Minister of Interior), Yun Shi Zhong Cheng led the office of Yun Shi Tai, which is in charge of monitoring the behaviors of court officials and report to the emperor when improper behaviors are observed. Yun Shi Zhong Cheng is also in charge of the laws within the palace.
Yuan shu you dare declare yourself emporor I shall bring the justice of the Han upon your head.
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