Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:02 pm

ur wrong

Cao Cao and Liu Bei hated each other and always wanted to be greater than each other but never showed it...
liu bei had strong generals back then
cao cao army could take down almost anyone..

it was zhang liao who pursed guan yu to join since they r sorta like rivals..
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:20 pm

Cao Cao holds Guan Yu and keeps him, like if he had tried to execute Liu Bei, people would hate him and Liu Bei doesn't have anything at the time that Cao Cao wants.
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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:49 pm

have anything at the time that Cao Cao wants.


is that so?
Then why did he purse guan yu to join him and even when guan yu left he went himself and said good bye and presented him with a gift... Leaving guan yu in huge Debt to him.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:08 pm

because Cao Cao liked Guan Yu and had some honour? Besides a general, even on loan, is another body for the fight against Yuan Shao, why wouldn't Cao Cao want Guan Yu's services?

However holding Guan Yu hostage to get Zhang Fei isn't going to work considering the backlash that comes with his popularity and forcing service from generals doesn't tend to work that well, they can rebel and plot.
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Unread postby Foif » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:26 pm

This is getting pretty off-topic...

And Xu Shu never had the same honour as Guan Yu. First of all Guan Yu close enough to Liu Bei to be considered his brother [which in the book he was], which would seem really disloyal if you defected from your own brother, just so at one point you could come back. Xu Shu, on the other hand didnt have the same honour, and not only went to save his mother, but to serve another lord. I never remember Xu Shu agreeing to go over there to serve another lord, only to take care of his mother, but he did stay, which, in my eyes, shows some disloyalty.


Hidden-Tactics, you said that Cao Cao and Liu Bei hated each other and always wanted to be greater than each other but never showed it...

Umm, last time i checked, when Cao Cao attacked Liu Bei those many times, im pretty sure that showed their hatred, and the ambition to be greater than the other...
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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:58 pm

Foif wrote:This is getting pretty off-topic...

And Xu Shu never had the same honour as Guan Yu. First of all Guan Yu close enough to Liu Bei to be considered his brother [which in the book he was], which would seem really disloyal if you defected from your own brother, just so at one point you could come back. Xu Shu, on the other hand didnt have the same honour, and not only went to save his mother, but to serve another lord. I never remember Xu Shu agreeing to go over there to serve another lord, only to take care of his mother, but he did stay, which, in my eyes, shows some disloyalty.


Hidden-Tactics, you said that Cao Cao and Liu Bei hated each other and always wanted to be greater than each other but never showed it...

Umm, last time i checked, when Cao Cao attacked Liu Bei those many times, im pretty sure that showed their hatred, and the ambition to be greater than the other...



liu bei had strong generals back then
cao cao army could take down almost anyone..


why do you think i said this? :?

u see the generals liu bei had (Ex. Zhang Fei)
Cao cao army strong..

so imagine wat will happen if those 2 fight....
they both waited till some one gets an upper hand which was cao cao
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Unread postby Foif » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:01 pm

Cao Cao always had the upper hand... :?

There generals were usually matched, except for the fact that Cao Cao had himself, a ton of advisors, a huge army to back it up, and the Han at his knees. Liu Bei had Zhuge Liang and his imperial ancestory. When i look at that, yeah, theres Zhuge Liang, but from there it kinda seems as if Cao Cao has the upper hand.

Liu Bei had Zhang Fei.....Ok...Zhao Yun...Who else? Guan Yu, really shouldnt be mentioned, and he never really got Huang Zhong or Wei Yan until he started to take back Jing. If you say that Cao Cao didnt have generals, who was Zhang Liao, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Cao Ren, and plethora of others under his wing?

And really, they never actually waited. Liu Bei ran from the capitol, and Cao Cao went after him. There was no real waiting. Cao Cao didnt wait when he chased Liu Bei at Chang Ban. Cao Cao didnt wait when he revealed his power at court was much stronger than Liu Bei's. Historically, From the book, or however you look at it...there wasnt much[If any] waiting ...
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:21 pm

So I am assuming that the story of Xu Shu's mother committing suicide because of her son's defection to Cao Cao is false as well?
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Unread postby Foif » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:01 pm

Lexus Fiend wrote:So I am assuming that the story of Xu Shu's mother committing suicide because of her son's defection to Cao Cao is false as well?


You are correct. Historically, she never committed suicide. Just another add-in of the Author.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:47 am

Zhuge Liang's:
Quote:
. Zhuge Liang and Xu Shu accompanied him. They were pursued and routed by Duke Cao, who captured Xu Shu’s mother. Xu Shu farewelled the Former Lord, pointed to his heart and said: “Originally I had intended to assume the undertaking for hegemony with you, my general, relying on this heart of mine. Yet now I have lost my elderly mother, this heart is in turmoil and of no use to your cause. Please allow me to part from you here.” Then he went to see Duke Cao.


The ZZTJ backs the Kongming version (though it says "made his excuses to Liu Bei rather then farewelled)


So you're saying that Kongming's version of Xu Shu's bio suggests that Xu Shu actually defected because of his mother being captured?

Maybe he did make his excuses rather than farewell Liu Bei.

Hmm.. interesting. It's still unclear as to weather or not Xu Shu intended to stay with Liu Bei to the end, though that's what he said to Liu Bei on parting- so I'd say that Xu Shu, if he was telling the truth, defected with the intent to serve Cao Cao, but to also be with his mother.

Strange situation.
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