Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:33 am

foif wrote:
the glorious sun jian wrote:in the novel

he warned cao cao because he feared him , think what if cao cao was defeated he would kill xu shu claiming he did not advise him well .



He could do that every other advisor under him as well. And Killing Xu Shu would give him a bad reputation, which is what he always feared.


he kiddnaped his mother which s worse than killing an unworthy servant

err- his mother had been captured by Cao Cao and used as a pawn in the game of getting Xu Shu to give in to Wei- as has been pointed out in Prime minister for you 2 thread- the Wei Lue translation of Xu Shu's SGZ doesn't show Cao Cao capturing Xu Shu's mother, but it wouldn't would it? It would want to make Wei look great.


he did not capture her in the real history did he ??

then i think xu shu is a lazy man who did not have the will to do anything ,he wanted to stay home and chased for fighting as he id before
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:49 am

he did not capture her in the real history did he ??


He did but in a less cynical way then the novel, a lot of people got captured including Liu bei's daughters at Chang Ban, Xu Shu's mother was captured and Xu Shu defected. There is no mention of it being used against Xu Shu
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Unread postby Foif » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:54 pm

the glorious sun jian wrote:he kiddnaped his mother which s worse than killing an unworthy servant


Err...i dont really get what you mean. Kidnapping his mother doesnt neccessarily mean he HAS to give advice. Cao Cao never bribed him, Xu Shu did it on his own free will.


I also agree with Dong Zhuo on the whole "Cao Cao is going to win" thing. If he was really thinking than he would have realized that Cao Cao would have never killed his mother, as it would have given him a bad rep. The point is, he might have actually known that, and still defected. I think his "hired sword" personality came into play around here.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:48 am

So we have a few things here.

Xu Shu's mother was captured.

Dong Zhuo has just said that Cao Cao didn't use it the capturing as bait.

Xu Shu then defected.

Seems cut and dried, but do we know everything?

What do the cross sources say about Xu Shu's defection, are they all cut and dried and no mention of Cao using it against him?

Do we know Xu Shu's mind in terms of how he felt about the situation, was he worried?

Maybe it's as clear as you say though.
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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:19 pm

Well...
if u guys think tht defecting for some one u love is great...

then y didn't Guan Yu join sun quan when he was captured by Lu Meng and Lu Xun? i mean he could join Shu later instead of dieing and being excuted and caused sooo much trouble when he died!
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:35 pm

Hidden-Tactics wrote:Well...
if u guys think tht defecting for some one u love is great...

then y didn't Guan Yu join sun quan when he was captured by Lu Meng and Lu Xun? i mean he could join Shu later instead of dieing and being excuted and caused sooo much trouble when he died!


if it will rescue someone it is not great but not bad because you will always have an excuse :)
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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:04 pm

true :D
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:55 pm

Hidden-Tactics wrote:Well...

then y didn't Guan Yu join sun quan when he was captured by Lu Meng and Lu Xun? i mean he could join Shu later instead of dieing and being excuted and caused sooo much trouble when he died!


I think Guan Yu would then be humiliated and his capture would put Liu Bei in a difficult and embarrassing position. Better death then further damage to his brother?

As for the sources, Xu Shu's says:
Xu Shu so they left for Jingzhou where they met and built a friendship with Zhuge Liang. When Jingzhou was surrendered, Kongming followed Liu Bei but Fu and Tou came north


Zhuge Liang's:
. Zhuge Liang and Xu Shu accompanied him. They were pursued and routed by Duke Cao, who captured Xu Shu’s mother. Xu Shu farewelled the Former Lord, pointed to his heart and said: “Originally I had intended to assume the undertaking for hegemony with you, my general, relying on this heart of mine. Yet now I have lost my elderly mother, this heart is in turmoil and of no use to your cause. Please allow me to part from you here.” Then he went to see Duke Cao.


The ZZTJ backs the Kongming version (though it says "made his excuses to Liu Bei rather then farewelled)
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Unread postby Hidden-Tactics » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Hidden-Tactics wrote:Well...

then y didn't Guan Yu join sun quan when he was captured by Lu Meng and Lu Xun? i mean he could join Shu later instead of dieing and being excuted and caused sooo much trouble when he died!


I think Guan Yu would then be humiliated and his capture would put Liu Bei in a difficult and embarrassing position. Better death then further damage to his brother?

As for the sources, Xu Shu's says:
Xu Shu so they left for Jingzhou where they met and built a friendship with Zhuge Liang. When Jingzhou was surrendered, Kongming followed Liu Bei but Fu and Tou came north


Zhuge Liang's:
. Zhuge Liang and Xu Shu accompanied him. They were pursued and routed by Duke Cao, who captured Xu Shu’s mother. Xu Shu farewelled the Former Lord, pointed to his heart and said: “Originally I had intended to assume the undertaking for hegemony with you, my general, relying on this heart of mine. Yet now I have lost my elderly mother, this heart is in turmoil and of no use to your cause. Please allow me to part from you here.” Then he went to see Duke Cao.


The ZZTJ backs the Kongming version (though it says "made his excuses to Liu Bei rather then farewelled)



Guan Yu joined his brother Rival Cao Cao... he fought against him in Guan Du... Zhang Fei and him were going to fight when guan yu escpaed from cao cao... and when he died.. he caused more trouble than embarrasment
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:32 pm

Different situation, back then Cao Cao had no need of a hostage against Liu Bei and it would serve him little purpose, people would be wary of surrendering to Cao Cao if he did that while Guan Yu could still be used for a battle or two. Whereas Quan could threaten to have Guan Yu executed if Liu Bei dared try to regain Jing, which would in effect, make Shu Wu's puppet and kill the kingdom there and then.
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