Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

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Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

Unread postby Foif » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:38 pm

Although im aware of another topic that is similar to this one...I think this is a bit different. The discussion is taken from the A Prime Minister For You 2, thread.



Shi Tong wrote:Yes, he did get posts, but he didn't plan militarily for Cao Cao, and maybe in these civil posts, at least he could look after people, afterall, if it's the people you're serving rather than directly serving Cao Cao, why not take the post?


Well in the novel, if i remember correctly, one the notes said that Xu Shu was one of the ones who objected Cao Cao's beheading of Xiahou Dun, which resulted after an encounter with Zhuge Liang. Not only that, but he even advised Cao Cao NOT to fight him, because he would lose. Although you could argue he was trying to save people, i slightly disagree. What are your thoughts?
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Xu Shu & Cao Cao

Unread postby Yuan Sho » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:17 pm

Well after reviewing over the novel, at the moment when Xiahou Dun was first trying to battle Zhuge Liang, Xu Shu was just only letting Cao Cao know to use caution against Zhuge Liang.

After the battle was over, Xiahou Dun was about to lose his head, but Cao Cao did not behead him because of his other two generals (Li Dian & Yu Jin) who reminded him of narrow passes.

More importantly, Xu Shu was only just, from my p.o.v., trying to keep more soldiers alive so that they all would not die against Zhuge Liang's ambushes and traps. Also, Xu Shu only suggests caution with Cao Cao from time to time, but never not once got involved in any more military affairs after he went off towards the North to deal with Ma Teng & Han Sui in case they are revolting (From the Chi Bi event).
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Unread postby Jebusrocks » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:01 pm

IF I remember correctly, Xu Shu never held any strong position, if he was ambitious enough, he coulda held a high position and be fighting in front lines
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:21 am

Are we talking novel or history here? In the novel, which seems we are discussing, he merely gives fair warning to Cao Cao but his pride gets in the way of returning to Liu Bei. He had his chances too do so but chose not to
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Re: Xu Shu...What was his real intent?

Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:09 pm

foif wrote:Although im aware of another topic that is similar to this one...I think this is a bit different. The discussion is taken from the A Prime Minister For You 2, thread.



Shi Tong wrote:Yes, he did get posts, but he didn't plan militarily for Cao Cao, and maybe in these civil posts, at least he could look after people, afterall, if it's the people you're serving rather than directly serving Cao Cao, why not take the post?


Well in the novel, if i remember correctly, one the notes said that Xu Shu was one of the ones who objected Cao Cao's beheading of Xiahou Dun, which resulted after an encounter with Zhuge Liang. Not only that, but he even advised Cao Cao NOT to fight him, because he would lose. Although you could argue he was trying to save people, i slightly disagree. What are your thoughts?


Saving Xiahou Dun does not help Cao Cao's cause since he loses all the time anyway. :P
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Unread postby Foif » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:07 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Are we talking novel or history here? In the novel, which seems we are discussing, he merely gives fair warning to Cao Cao but his pride gets in the way of returning to Liu Bei. He had his chances too do so but chose not to


Well its up to you. I was just point out that in the novel, something like that happened. Just give your ideas on both, i guess.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:09 pm

in the novel

he warned cao cao because he feared him , think what if cao cao was defeated he would kill xu shu claiming he did not advise him well .

in the history :-
well i dont know but after knowing that shu was not forced to serve cao cao as in the novel he seems as he wanted to serve him well but embarrsed from liu bei .

in each cases i dont like xu shu and i think he is overrated (i knoe this is not from th topic but i want to show my mind :) )
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Unread postby Foif » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:04 pm

the glorious sun jian wrote:in the novel

he warned cao cao because he feared him , think what if cao cao was defeated he would kill xu shu claiming he did not advise him well .



He could do that every other advisor under him as well. And Killing Xu Shu would give him a bad reputation, which is what he always feared.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:35 am

Historically, it probably was filial piety perhaps mixed with the "Cao Cao is going to Win" feeling but mostly filial piety. Problem is he makes no effort to return to Shu and goes up the ranks in the law part of Wei so I think he was quite content to serve Wei and his loyalty to Liu Bei isn't as big as he claimed it to be.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:02 am

foif, thanks for starting this thread, and quoting me :wink:

I think it's an interesting one.

he warned cao cao because he feared him , think what if cao cao was defeated he would kill xu shu claiming he did not advise him well .
I agree that this isn't really a good example.

There's not really any reason for Cao Cao killing Xu Shu for defeat- he just wanted to keep him away from Liu Bei, IMO.

well i dont know but after knowing that shu was not forced to serve cao cao as in the novel he seems as he wanted to serve him well but embarrsed from liu bei .

in each cases i dont like xu shu and i think he is overrated (i knoe this is not from th topic but i want to show my mind Smile )


err- his mother had been captured by Cao Cao and used as a pawn in the game of getting Xu Shu to give in to Wei- as has been pointed out in Prime minister for you 2 thread- the Wei Lue translation of Xu Shu's SGZ doesn't show Cao Cao capturing Xu Shu's mother, but it wouldn't would it? It would want to make Wei look great.

Historically, it probably was filial piety perhaps mixed with the "Cao Cao is going to Win" feeling but mostly filial piety. Problem is he makes no effort to return to Shu and goes up the ranks in the law part of Wei so I think he was quite content to serve Wei and his loyalty to Liu Bei isn't as big as he claimed it to be.


This is the real question.

I agree with Dong Zhou here- I think he was mainly in Wei for his mother.. if his mother died soon after his defection, was it fear that kept him in Wei? Maybe it was the fact that Cao had promoted him, and then Xu Shu felt like he owed something to Cao Cao (a bit like the novel Guan Yu who lets him go at Chi Bi).

Though he makes no effort to return to Shu, is that such a disloyal act? Is Xu Shu actually caught between two leaders who both treat him well?

Maybe Xu Shu thought better of going back to Liu Bei because Cao was nice to him, maybe he was scared, and maybe he liked being a Wei minister.

Either way, that's the real question!
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