Why harbour Liu Bei?

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Why harbour Liu Bei?

Unread postby Shi Tong » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:04 pm

I'm not sure if anyone's asked this before, but I checked the SGYY archive and found a thread here which is similar to what I want to ask, and to talk about.

Why did Wu/ Sun Quan "harbour" Liu Bei at Chi Bi?

Sun must have known that Cao didn't like Liu Bei/ that he was trying to catch or destroy him.

Sun must have also known that harbouring Liu Bei would anger Cao Cao and his massive army.

So why?

Liu Bei was ambitious, Sun must have known that, he must have known that Liu would or could have helped him, at least a little at Chi Bi, but with weakened and exhausted troops.

Was Sun Quan too inexperienced to see that Liu Bei would be a thorn/ Cao Cao would be a thorn if he favoured on instead of the other?

Was it that Sun Quan wanted Liu Bei to invade the west, forming the 3k because he knew that was the only chance of sucess?

What do you think?[/quote]
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:43 pm

It was the only way to repel Cao Cao decisively. With Liu Bei's (and Liu Qi's) support, Wu gained an extra 20,000 troops to utilize against Cao Cao. That would bring their total from 30,000 to 50,000.

Rivalries and Ambition can be forgotten for the sake of survival, it's human nature.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:49 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:It was the only way to repel Cao Cao decisively. With Liu Bei's (and Liu Qi's) support, Wu gained an extra 20,000 troops to utilize against Cao Cao. That would bring their total from 30,000 to 50,000.

Rivalries and Ambition can be forgotten for the sake of survival, it's human nature.


i agree with you it could be also to use liu bei strategical position to defend against cao cao to prevent him to gain the all jing .
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Re: Why harbour Liu Bei?

Unread postby Foif » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:33 pm

Shi Tong wrote:
Was it that Sun Quan wanted Liu Bei to invade the west, forming the 3k because he knew that was the only chance of sucess?

What do you think?
[/quote]

I really doubt Sun Quan had the intellectual capabilities to see that far into the future, let alone see that it would be his only way of survival. And at that time, Sun Quan also had Zhou Yu, which would help keep Liu Bei in check, but he died....Other than that i agree with the people above me.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 pm

Liu Bei could offer more than just troops. Sun Quan at that point was merely a fledgling. Liu Bei, although he was a wanderer had been around and his fame far exceeded that of Sun Quan and lately he had been gathering support in Jing. Of those in Jing that did not favour the surrender, Liu Bei is their natural leader.

At that point the survival of Sun Quan's enterprise was at stake and the expectation was that Cao Cao would win so it was logical to do everything to enhance their chances rather than consider Liu Bei as a future enemy in a future that might never be.

Even after repelling Cao Cao at Chibi Sun Quan agreed to help Liu Bei as he was not confident enough to face Cao Cao on his own.
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Unread postby Foif » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:52 pm

Zhilong wrote:Liu Bei could offer more than just troops. Sun Quan at that point was merely a fledgling. Liu Bei, although he was a wanderer had been around and his fame far exceeded that of Sun Quan and lately he had been gathering support in Jing. Of those in Jing that did not favour the surrender, Liu Bei is their natural leader.


He may have been a fledgling in fame, but not in land. Sun Ce pretty much rounded up a good amount of Wu before he died, so i really doubt they didnt have land, troops, and supplies.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:43 am

Exactly. Sun Quan was far more powerful than Liu Bei at that point and had already established his own authority. He may not have been the military prodigy that Sun Ce was, but he and his subordinates were certainly capable, as his victories against Liu Biao and the Shanyue prove.

And as famous as Liu Bei may have been, he had no real territory. From the day that Sun Ce began his campaigns until after the death of Zhou Yu, the Sun family always had more territory than Liu Bei. While we do know that Liu Bei was respected (numerous anecdotes about Sun Quan, as well as Sun Ce referring to him by his courtesy name to Taishi Ci) by the Sun family, I really doubt that he made Sun Quan look like a "fledgeling" in comparison. Sun Quan had control of most of the largest province in China as well as parts of Jing and Huainan, whereas Liu Bei had only one commandery.

Why did Sun Quan harbor Liu Bei? Simple. They had a common enemy. Sun Quan had no desire to see Cao Cao dominate the land. He may not have been as proactive in conquest as Sun Ce was, but he certainly had his own ambition. Sun Quan felt, rightly, that the enemy of his enemy could be his friend. Say what you will about the alliance between the two during its low points, when they were getting along swell, Liu Bei and Sun Quan were a formidable pair.

I think Sun Quan realized that once Liu Bei was destroyed, Cao Cao would be moving on to other opponents. Not Sun Quan himself, necessarily, but he'd have all of Jing province and Sun Quan would be surrounded. It would be much more difficult for Sun Quan to conquer additional territory if the only people he could ally with were in Xiliang (Ma Teng), Hanzhong (Zhang Lu), Jiaozhou (Shi Xie), or Yizhou (Liu Zhang) and he had no way of reaching them.
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Re: Why harbour Liu Bei?

Unread postby King Kong Zhou » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:32 am

foif wrote:I really doubt Sun Quan had the intellectual capabilities to see that far into the future, let alone see that it would be his only way of survival. And at that time, Sun Quan also had Zhou Yu, which would help keep Liu Bei in check, but he died....Other than that i agree with the people above me.


I agree. Liu Bei was a nobody, and had a small force, in comparison to Cao Cao or Sun Quan by the time of Chi Bi.

Probably, they didn't considered that Liu Bei would pose a threat later in the war, but Sun Quan really needed his help to face Cao Cao. That simple.
Last edited by King Kong Zhou on Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby FuguNabe » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:56 am

Did anyone realised that Cao Cao marshed his army with the emperor's backing. By having Liu Bei as ally Sun Quan is helping himself by say that Cao Cao is using the emperor as puppet and recognises imperial uncle Liu Bei's plight and standing against Cao Cao. In some way it came back to bite Sun Quan, but in the overall scheme of things Wu have more chance of survival against the much larger and more resourceful Cao Wei by allying with Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:15 am

Sun Gongli wrote:He may not have been the military prodigy that Sun Ce was


I guess it doesn't take that much to be a prodigy anymore...


I think harbour is pretty much the wrong word. Ally is more like it. This isn't the same as what Yuan Shao or Liu Biao did, which indeed would be harbouring.
The reason he would seek to ally with Liu Bei is very simple. Cao Cao was after both their heads. The Liu and Sun forces combined were much stronger than they were apart. Liu Bei was an experienced general and so were his subordinates. They would be reliable allies.

If Sun simply left Liu Bei to his own devices then he'd be quickly crushed and likely flee west to Liu Zhang, where he's now of no use to Sun Quan. On the other hand he'd now be stuck facing a Cao Cao firmly entranched in Jing. Whether Cao Cao decided to go for Sun Quan or Liu Zhang next, it's pretty much game over if it gets to this point.
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