Luo Guanzhong in love with Ma Chao??

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Luo Guanzhong in love with Ma Chao??

Unread postby Jebusrocks » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:33 pm

Here is a fact vs fiction for Ma Chao in the encyclopedia.
Ma Chao probably did not participate in Ma Teng’s attack on Li Jue. If he did fight in this campaign, he did not slay Wang Fang or capture Li Meng.
Ma Chao commanded Ma Teng’s troops in the Battle of Fen River (AD 202), a battle that is not mentioned in Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Ma Chao did not slay Li Tong around Tong Pass.
Contrary to the novel, Ma Teng, Chao’s father, was killed after Ma Chao rebelled against Cao Cao.
View ≈8 Additional Facts?
Ma Chao never fought a large battle with Zhong Yao.
Historical sources do not mention Ma Chao dueling with Yu Jin, Cao Hong, Zhang He or Li Tong. Ma Chao also didn’t come close to slaying Cao Cao at Tong.
Xu Chu, Cao Cao’s bodyguard, did not strip down and duel with Ma Chao historically.
Ma Chao did not historically cut off Han Sui’s left hand.
When praising Ma Chao, Yang Fu cited Ying Bu as like Ma Chao, and not Lü Bu.
It is not clear if Ma Chao dueled Yang Fu at Licheng. Yang Fu was wounded numerous times in the battle, however.
Ma Chao never dueled Zhang Fei at Jiameng Pass or fight with Liu Bei’s army historically.
Ma Chao did not guard Xiping or prevent a Xianbei invasion of Shu. In fact, Kebineng, king of the Xianbei, was an enemy of Wei, and never historically warred with Shu.


So the only historical significance Ma Chao had was the duel with Xu Zhu? Why did they give Ma Chao so much credit for something he's never done before? Is there any other generals treated by LGZ like this?
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
User avatar
Jebusrocks
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:22 am

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:46 pm

Ma Chao's hardly the only one. Look at Guan Yu... Zhang Fei... Zhao Yun... Huang Zhong... Zhuge Liang...

Of course, it's not just Shu. The exploits of Wu and Wei generals are also magnified in some instances, though never to the extent that Shu generals' are.

And if you think LGZ is too kind to Ma Chao in SGYY, try 反三國演義 ("Extreme Romance of the Three Kingdoms"), a propaganda "retelling" of the SGYY story that makes Zhao Yun and Ma Chao the two central figures of the whole era.
"There are those who try to shape the world to their own whim,
and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
User avatar
Sun Gongli
Poo Poo Pants
 
Posts: 4058
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am
Location: Spies destroy everything I create!

Re: Luo Guanzhong in love with Ma Chao??

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:10 pm

jebusrocks wrote:Here is a fact vs fiction for Ma Chao in the encyclopedia.
Ma Chao probably did not participate in Ma Teng’s attack on Li Jue. If he did fight in this campaign, he did not slay Wang Fang or capture Li Meng.
Ma Chao commanded Ma Teng’s troops in the Battle of Fen River (AD 202), a battle that is not mentioned in Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Ma Chao did not slay Li Tong around Tong Pass.
Contrary to the novel, Ma Teng, Chao’s father, was killed after Ma Chao rebelled against Cao Cao.
View ≈8 Additional Facts?
Ma Chao never fought a large battle with Zhong Yao.
Historical sources do not mention Ma Chao dueling with Yu Jin, Cao Hong, Zhang He or Li Tong. Ma Chao also didn’t come close to slaying Cao Cao at Tong.
Xu Chu, Cao Cao’s bodyguard, did not strip down and duel with Ma Chao historically.
Ma Chao did not historically cut off Han Sui’s left hand.
When praising Ma Chao, Yang Fu cited Ying Bu as like Ma Chao, and not Lü Bu.
It is not clear if Ma Chao dueled Yang Fu at Licheng. Yang Fu was wounded numerous times in the battle, however.
Ma Chao never dueled Zhang Fei at Jiameng Pass or fight with Liu Bei’s army historically.
Ma Chao did not guard Xiping or prevent a Xianbei invasion of Shu. In fact, Kebineng, king of the Xianbei, was an enemy of Wei, and never historically warred with Shu.


So the only historical significance Ma Chao had was the duel with Xu Zhu? Why did they give Ma Chao so much credit for something he's never done before? Is there any other generals treated by LGZ like this?


I found a few inaccurasies with the encyclopedia.

1) Ma Chao never fought a large battle with Zhong Yao? Zhong Yao was the governor of Chang An at the time of the rebellion, and seeing as there are a few sources to give hints that Ma Chao took Chang An, either Zhong Yao simply retreated and surrendered the city, or they fought. I don't doubt it wasn't an epic battle, but showing information with that tone makes it sound like he didn't fight with Zhong Yao at all.

2) Ma Chao did come close to slaying Cao Cao... just not in the way the novel put it. Instead, Ma Chao was the only of the allied commanders to stop Cao Cao's river crossing for some time. During an umber of these attempts, Cao Cao's life was in personal danger, such as when he hardly escaped the arrows of Ma Chao's soldiers.


Other than that, though, yes, they do alter many officers' feats.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
User avatar
Tan_Binrui
Langzhong
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Orange County, CA

Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:41 am

that makes Zhao Yun and Ma Chao the two central figures of the whole era.
What about Guan Yu and Liu Bei? :(
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby FuguNabe » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:22 am

Shadowlink wrote:
that makes Zhao Yun and Ma Chao the two central figures of the whole era.
What about Guan Yu and Liu Bei? :(


I actually thought the central figure of the novel was Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Zhuge Liang myself. As for central figure of era I thought that was Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Su Ce, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi. I didn't think either Ma Chao or Zhao Yun was that much of a central figure.

Anyhow on-topic, the reason for any Shu bias was simply propaganda of the novel itself for the Han Chinese. The original Han dynasy symbolised that best and Liu Bei's effort (and all the 'heroic' generals under him) in the novel reflects Han's plight over the centuries. It also reflects the Southern Song as well in a similar plight if he Han-Chinese. That is reason why not so heroic Ma Chao and many others get's major props in the novel. However they did balance it out well with karmic-like retribution to many characters in the novel. So in the end we see some coolness in other factions as well though I see sometimes they make a certain general better than they really are just to make their slaying that much more awesome by the figures the author wanted to push.
Last edited by FuguNabe on Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cynicism in my lyricism? Life has been series of questions and sessions of lessons to enhance my essence...

Knowledge is god as despite my iaido skills my pen is is mightier than my sword...

With a tongue to match my wit your mental death swift...
User avatar
FuguNabe
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1276
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:26 am
Location: You'd find me at some karaoke drinking and singing with ladies on the weekend

Unread postby Foif » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:08 am

Sun Gongli wrote:
And if you think LGZ is too kind to Ma Chao in SGYY, try 反三國演義 ("Extreme Romance of the Three Kingdoms"), a propaganda "retelling" of the SGYY story that makes Zhao Yun and Ma Chao the two central figures of the whole era.


FuguNabe wrote: actually thought the central figure of the novel was Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Zhuge Liang myself. As for central figure of era I thought that was Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Quan, Su Ce, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi. I didn't think either Ma Chao or Zhao Yun was that much of a central figure.


I think he was talking about a different book...

Anyways, i think he didnt love him, because if he did, he would have implied that Ma Chao was the cause of his fathers death.
Foif
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:39 pm

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:21 pm

Shadowlink wrote:
that makes Zhao Yun and Ma Chao the two central figures of the whole era.
What about Guan Yu and Liu Bei? :(


Don't worry, they get their props too. The whole premise of the novel is "praise Shu, put down Wu, and destroy Wu." But Guan Yu and Liu Bei both die when they're supposed to (though I'm sure they have something stupid like Guan Yu killing Lu Meng or Liu Bei winning at Yiling but then they have to retreat because he dies).

In short, it's fiction. Moreso than the novel. It's not even very well written.
"There are those who try to shape the world to their own whim,
and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
User avatar
Sun Gongli
Poo Poo Pants
 
Posts: 4058
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am
Location: Spies destroy everything I create!

Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:29 pm

Meh I dont like not well written stories, I want Wu and Shu to win it like their original plan then kill defeat each other.
Last edited by Shadowlink on Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby Long » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:00 pm

Well, historically Ma Chao was an exceptional general. He accomplished quite a bit despite really ever having the luxury of a learned strategist. Dr. de Crespigny has written works which give specific areas of the northern plains which Ma Chao and the Liang conquered in their march towards Tong Pass which account for a huge amount of land.
Where the fiction really begins to pick up, as is the case with most of the characters in the novel, is when duels occur. Historically very few duels actually occured, and Luo Guanzhong takes the liberty of adding gobs of them in to make the characters seem more heroic.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
"Censorship is a tool for the closed-minded and insecure."
User avatar
Long
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 735
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:51 pm

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:34 pm

Exactly. I see no reason to single out Ma Chao. Sure, he was no saint, but even in the novel, he's given a few unsavory details. I would say he was quite exceptional. He died too soon to do much for Shu, but that's hardly his fault.
"There are those who try to shape the world to their own whim,
and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
User avatar
Sun Gongli
Poo Poo Pants
 
Posts: 4058
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am
Location: Spies destroy everything I create!

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved