Liu Biao: Brilliant General?

[Tarrot]

Dong Zhuo and I are having this mini-debate over on da Sim, figured I'd throw it over here: Just how good of a general was Liu Biao?

From what I've been able to gather, Liu Biao established his kingdom from nothing, and turned it into a haven for other officers. After taking over for Wang Rui, he went to Jing by himself, gathered men, and pacified the region, then later personally led the campaign to take southern Jing. I personally find this more akin to Sun Ce's conquest of Wu, only Sun Ce has more wrote about him and had quicker success. Dong is of the opinion that he rarely led troops by himself. I'm just throwing this out here, seeing what others have to say/know about it.

Also, the source I'm using quotes the HHS and SGZ and a couple other sources, so some of what I'm using might be there.

[Dong Zhou]

I had thought of asking you about discussing it over here, nice call Tarrot

My own feelings towards Liu Biao is that once Kuai Yue tricked the chieftains, Liu Biao conquered by diplomacy and good government for the most part, the debate we have had has increased my opinion of him. His biggest conquest (to the best of my knowledge) came because his rival died after years of figthing and he was able to beat his son then took the southern regions of Chang Sha. While Liu Biao is better then I originally thought, Sun Ce's quick contests were against more formidable men though Ce did actually have troops to start of with.

[Sun Gongli]

Ce had more troops because he was able to attract them though, not because of any sort of large command. Three thousand troops to take a region is not a lot. It speaks volumes of Sun's charisma that he was able to attract such a large following on the way to battle with Liu You.

I won't begrudge Liu Biao his achievements, but unlike Sun, he had an official post to back him up. Sun Ce was just another cog in Yuan Shu's war machine, while Liu Biao actually had Imperial recognition of his position.

[SlickSlicer]

I kind of admire Liu Biao for taking over the province and then attempting to sort of stay neutral. He's sort of unique for not being a warmongerer. I think Sun Ce's conquests were more difficult, but in some ways I like Liu Biao better.

[Sun Gongli]

I do agree that Liu Biao made plenty of wise choices, but a brilliant general? I'm going to disagree. A good administrator and good choice to lead a province? Undoubtedly. But it was men like Huang Zu, Liu Pan, and the Kuai brothers who accomplished things militarily. Liu Biao simply gave orders.

[SlickSlicer]

I've never thought of Liu Biao as a military genius, but I never really took the time to learn much about him and his generals. I'm waiting for the 'pro' side of this argument to post some of his specific military feats as a commander before I post in agreeance or in opposition.

This should be a nice debate.

[Dong Zhou]

What did Huang Zu do other then lose? Those three thousand troops were more then Liu Biao started off with, a rank and once he got there, the Kuai's but as I said, I prefer Sun Ce's conquest.

I think Liu Biao was a man who could do a job but he never faced the big boys, just some troublesome rebels/tribes in Jing which he pacified through a mixture of means. Mostly diplomacy and good government then military means and he did take years to beat one guy (anyone remember his name or that of his son?)

[Sun Gongli]

What did Huang Zu do other then lose? Those three thousand troops were more then Liu Biao started off with, a rank and once he got there, the Kuai's but as I said, I prefer Sun Ce's conquest.

I think Liu Biao was a man who could do a job but he never faced the big boys, just some troublesome rebels/tribes in Jing which he pacified through a mixture of means. Mostly diplomacy and good government then military means and he did take years to beat one guy (anyone remember his name or that of his son?)

Zhang Xian was the Prefect of Changsha who rebelled against Liu Biao, IIRC. Huan Jie, the former Sun family vassal, was a member of his staff, which leads me to believe that the Zhang Xian rebellion was at least somewhat endorsed or supported by the Sun family, at least in theory.

As for Huang Zu, you can't blame him for losing to Sun Ce and Zhou Yu. His unit did manage to kill Sun Jian, which should count for something, as Sun Jian was, at that moment, probably the most famous man in the Han Dynasty besides the Yuan brothers, Dong Zhuo, or Lu Bu.

[Tarrot]

I thought it was an ambush by the Kuai's which brought about Sun Jian's death. Going by the novel, it wasn't even Huang Zu who led Sun Jian into the ambush, I'm not sure about history.

I think I may have gotten some of my info mixed up on Liu Biao, especially in the early years, but I still felt like throwing this out here just to get some discussion going. He seems to be underrated for his pacifist stance, but in spite of this, managed to build up a fairly decent sized territory from what amounted to nothing. All he had was an inspector rank from Dong Zhuo, which really amounted to nothing, and rose to be a rather powerful warlord.

[Dong Zhou]

If memory serves me rightly, Huang Zu had lost a battle and Jian was pursuing the defeated army but one of the archers managed to shoot Jian dead. I think the term I would use for that is fluke