Fa Zheng vs Zhuge Liang (historically)

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Fa Zheng vs Zhuge Liang (historically)

Unread postby Jebusrocks » Fri May 11, 2007 3:00 am

I just wanted to know wat they were historically cuz i never actually read any historical facts
All I know is that:
Fa Zheng is underrated in the novel and does not mention some of his accomplishments

Zhuge Liang is overrated and adds/exaggerates his accomplishments in the novel.

Can somebody tell me about these two??
Also, what if Fa Zheng became PM instead of Zhuge Liang?
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Fri May 11, 2007 3:13 am

I have heard of Fa Zheng's military tactics, but does any one know of a civil accomplishmen worthy of the appointment of Prime Minister?
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Unread postby Gabriel » Fri May 11, 2007 4:04 am

Fa Zheng sucked. He's sooooo completely overrated it's ridiculous. Zhuge ftw.

Fa Zheng is underrated in the novel and does not mention some of his accomplishments
Ha, Fa Zheng's better in the novel then he is in real life. In real life he did little for Liu Bei during the campaign against Liu Zhang (Zhang Song did more), did little to nothing during Shu's campaign against Wei (Hanzhong), and civily I can say he was pretty worthless, thinking he could talk down to Kongming. I THINK NOT!!! :lol:
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Unread postby Jebusrocks » Fri May 11, 2007 4:22 am

Gabriel wrote:Fa Zheng sucked. He's sooooo completely overrated it's ridiculous. Zhuge ftw.

Fa Zheng is underrated in the novel and does not mention some of his accomplishments
Ha, Fa Zheng's better in the novel then he is in real life. In real life he did little for Liu Bei during the campaign against Liu Zhang (Zhang Song did more), did little to nothing during Shu's campaign against Wei (Hanzhong), and civily I can say he was pretty worthless, thinking he could talk down to Kongming. I THINK NOT!!! :lol:

hmm,, thats not wat i heard ,,,,
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Fri May 11, 2007 4:24 am

Well, it is true that he has never been shinningfor his accomplishments in civil matters...
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Unread postby Gabriel » Fri May 11, 2007 4:30 am

jebusrocks wrote:hmm,, thats not wat i heard ,,,,
Well that's what I read. Looking at the entire campaign against Liu Zhang, Zhang Song did more for Liu Bei (giving him a map of the area and giving ideas for beating Liu Zhang, etc.). During Liu Bei's invasion of Hanzhong, again from what I've read, Liu Bei and Huang Zhong did more to take it and repel Cao Cao then Fa Zheng did. Fa Zheng's only mentioned in his own bio as giving Liu Bei advise once. May or may not be true, but others say Liu Bei gave the orders, as if he knew what he was doing, and he was quite a commander so I'm inclined to believe he did. Civily he wasn't well liked, and some asked Zhuge to get Liu Bei to restrain him. On another occasion Fa Zheng made a comment to Zhuge, to which Zhuge proved him to be wrong. He died right after Liu Bei took Hanzhong.
Last edited by Gabriel on Fri May 11, 2007 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jebusrocks » Fri May 11, 2007 4:32 am

Gabriel wrote:
jebusrocks wrote:hmm,, thats not wat i heard ,,,,
Well that's what I read. Looking at the entire campaign against Liu Zhang, Zhang Song did more for Liu Bei (giving him a map of the area and giving ideas for beating Liu Zhang, etc.). During Liu Bei's invasion of Hanzhong, again from what I've read, Liu Bei and Huang Zhong did more to take it and repel Cao Cao then Fa Zheng did. Fa Zheng's only mentioned in his own bio as giving Liu Bei advise once. May or may not be true, but others say Liu Bei gave the orders, as if he knew what he was doing, and he was quite a commander so I'm inclined to believe he did. Civily he wasn't well liked, and some asked Zhuge to get Liu Bei to restrain him. On another occasion Fa Zheng made a comment to Zhuge, to which Zhuge proved him to be wrong. He did right after Liu Bei too Hanzhong.

wow, so this is a useless thread??
It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat.
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Unread postby Gabriel » Fri May 11, 2007 4:48 am

If it were Fa Zheng vs. a lesser person then you'd be alright. Zhuge just did way too much to have someone like Fa Zheng compared to him.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Fri May 11, 2007 5:33 am

In military tactics ZL cannot compare to Fa Zheng. Notice how Fa Zheng was the rising star when he was recruited. I imagine Liu Bei would be more ready to listen to Fa Zheng's tactical analysis than ZL.

From Fa Zhengs bio:
Someone said to Zhuge Liang, "Fa Zheng is too aggressive. You should tell our lord to restrain him.” [Zhuge] Liang responded, “When his lordship was in Gong An, he faced the strength of Duke Cao in the north, while in the East he shrank the pressure of Sun Quan, while close by he feared that Lady Sun would cause trouble in his own house. But now at this time, when he has advanced and pulled back, Fa Xiaozhi aided him so that he soars and flies and nothing holds him back. How can he now confine and restrict [Fa] Xiaozhi, denying the few things he asks?”

Initially, Sun Quan married his younger sister to the First Lord. She was fierce and possessed her elder brother’s spirit. She had 100 armed servants girls who all stood by with a dagger each. Whenever the First Lord would enter his heart would shiver with fear. [Zhuge] Liang knew that the First Lord was fond of [Fa] Zheng and thus he spoke so. (2)


ZL was able to offer Liu Bei an overall strategic plan but it is Fa Zheng that can deal with timing and tactics etc.

On the civil side Fa Zheng also had a hand in the founding of the new administration and had a hand in drafting the new laws etc in co-operation with others - it was not just ZL. It is just the case that ZL happened to live longer than most of the others, senior to the rest and later was able to pursue and expand his policies. In areas such as monetary policy it was Liu Ba that Liu Bei turned to, to solve the crisis. In the civil side i'd say Fa Zheng is a notch below ZL.

Politically Fa Zheng was not that good a politician under Liu Zhang but improved slightly under Liu Bei. Under Liu Zhang the ppl despised him. He had talent but he could not discipline himself till ZL put pressure on him.

Despite having valuable talent in the military and on the civil side, i think he is unsuitable for the post of PM. His personality is intolerant and breaks the laws he helped draft for personal reasons. It is for the same reason that Sun Quan denied Zhang Zhao the post despite his talent. If he can rectify his shortcomings i think that aside from ZL, Jiang Wan & Fei Yi, he would probably be the next best candidate.

For all the favour Liu Bei showed him, i think he would not entrust his enterprise to him in the same way he did to ZL. After all Fa Zheng actively betrayed his former lord and schemed with Liu Bei to take his lands.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 11, 2007 6:56 am

I find Fa Zheng's greatest strength somewhat close to Guo Jia's, they knew how to get their lord to do something. He was able to gain Liu Bei's trust, perhaps more then Zhuge Liang did and was a close advisor. Other then that, I don't find him that impressive (his one deed is claimed by two others) though maybe had he lived longer, he did have quite a reputation.

Even though Zhuge Liang was turned into a god in the novel, historically he was a very good Prime Minister and he wasn't too bad as a commander, he did gain two towns after all.
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