If Ma Chao wins at Tong Pass?

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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:54 pm

If Cao Cao is killed by Ma Chao, then doesn't Cao Pi, or some other son, succeed anyways? He would eventually get word of Cao Cao's death and seek revenge. Both leaders would be fueled by revenge and try to kill each other.

But if he actually managed to kill all of the Cao family he might ally with Liu Bei, then again he might not. He is a very vengeful leader so I doubt his anger will be simply taken out on Cao Cao. He might start by taking Cheng Du for himself on the account that Ma Chao doesn't actually get along with others.
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Unread postby Huo Jia » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:10 pm

if ma chao woulda killed cao cao, i imagine him or liu bei would take the advantage and take han zhong from zhang lu,and if ma chao took han zhong u would see liu zhang call to liu bei for help again and he would lose Yi again,and if cao cao dies,none of his sons wee ready to rule,so wu would have come along and conquered a good amount of wei
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:26 pm

I think this depends on the magnitude of the defeat. Two points where Cao could have died in the campaign

-Ma Chao's initial crushing of Cao's army and the Volley on the Boats - If Cao dies here, the majority of the army is still intact. Most likely, Ma Chao would eventually crush it and continue without the direction of its lord. However, it is possible that a general such as Xiahou Yuan could hold out and pull out a few tricks of his own. Still, I do not think Zhang He and Xiahou Yuan are capable enough to win alone. Ma Chao would continue on, but probably not be able to reach Xuchang. Still, it would buy Liu Bei and Sun Quan a good deal of time and a golden opportunity to strike north. Without Cao's defensive strategies, his garrisons in Jing and Yang were likely to fall. It would probably just result in the slow destruction of Wei, and if most the power went to Liu Bei and Ma Chao the dynasty would have most likely been revived.

-If Cao Cao survived this but was killed later for whatever reason, it would likely be the result of a great defeat in battle, probably thanks to Ma Chao's strategy to trap the Wei army and cut off their supplies. Here, Ma Chao would be able to reach Luoyang itself and possibly even Xuchang without much of a fight. Remember, Ma Chao fought the entirety of Wei's western army, which would have been utterly destroyed. Unless armies were called back from the Sun-Liu borders, the capital regions would be wide open with Ma Chao laying waste to Wei from within. Guaranteed revolts and foreign invasions. Cao Pi simply wouldn't have been able to restore power to his kingdom.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:17 pm

If Ma Chao won at Tong Pass and even killed Cao Cao, I still think Ma Chao would have been driven back. It is possible that Cao Cao's sons fought ecah other like Yuan Shao's for succession and Ma Chao took advantage and desroyed the Cao family. However what is more likely is that Cao Pi succeeded Cao Cao and considering Wei still had many capable advisors and officers, Ma Chao would have been driven back for sure. Cao Cao was important to Wei obviously, but his survival did not ultimately determine Wei's survival.
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Unread postby Omid » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:27 pm

elitemsh wrote:If Ma Chao won at Tong Pass and even killed Cao Cao, I still think Ma Chao would have been driven back. It is possible that Cao Cao's sons fought ecah other like Yuan Shao's for succession and Ma Chao took advantage and desroyed the Cao family. However what is more likely is that Cao Pi succeeded Cao Cao and considering Wei still had many capable advisors and officers, Ma Chao would have been driven back for sure. Cao Cao was important to Wei obviously, but his survival did not ultimately determine Wei's survival.

I do have to agree with you there, Cao Pi could follow up his father and take over the control though what officers were killed during that attack?

Also, it does matter how many troops were killed during the attack of Ma Chao on Tong Gate.

How many allies would've died during the assault?

then there is the answer if the kingdom would last long.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:29 am

If Ma Chao killed Cao Cao, it is possible Liu Bei's advisors would have convinced him to ally with Ma Chao. If this happened then I think Wei have been destroyed. As with corruption from within which usually arrives with the death of a major leader and the alliance of two powerful forces, Wei would not have survived for long unless they allied with Wu (but Wu probably would not desire this).
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Unread postby Zhao Zilong » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:36 pm

If Ma Chao killed Cao Cao at Tong Pass, then it would have been a total rout for the whole Wei army. Wei would have crumbled under the might of Ma Chao. Then Ma Chao would have submitted to Liu Bei and together with the rest of the Five Tiger Generals and Zhuge Liang, they would have banded together as brothers in arms, spreading justice and virtue across the land.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:53 pm

Zhao Zilong wrote:If Ma Chao killed Cao Cao at Tong Pass, then it would have been a total rout for the whole Wei army. Wei would have crumbled under the might of Ma Chao. Then Ma Chao would have submitted to Liu Bei and together with the rest of the Five Tiger Generals and Zhuge Liang, they would have banded together as brothers in arms, spreading justice and virtue across the land.


Why would Ma Chao submit to Liu Bei if he had control of two thirds of the land, and Liu Bei had a few cities in Jing? If anyone was going to submit, it would be the other way around.

Besides, Ma Chao would have had his forces too thinly spread if he had taken over the whole of Wei. It would have been a slow process, taking over cities and settling the populace, getting more supplies, etc. Besides, you may find that even without their leader, Wei isn't going to give up. You'd still find vigorously defended passes and cities, especially Luoyang. I'd imagine that Cao Ren and Zhang Liao would still continue to defend Xiangyang and Hefei respectively, regardless of whether their lord is dead or not. Duty was to Wei, not necessarily Cao Cao alone.
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Unread postby Zhao Zilong » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:01 am

Sima Hui, my post was designed to be a happy ending for Shu. Don't ruin the thunder.
"Do not bar the gates," said Zhao Zilong. "Have you never heard of my exploit at Dangyang, when I laughed at Cao Cao's many legions? Now that I have an army at my back and generals to help, what is there to fear?"
~SGYY, Chapter 71, Paragraph 119
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Unread postby Mikhail » Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:19 pm

If Ma Chao killed Cao Cao in Tong Pass, something like the Yuan situation might happen. The Cao family will fight against each other for control of the kingdom (I don't think Cao Cao named his heir by this time). This will split up most of the Wei officers up into their respective camps and might even cause the death of a few. Those with high ambition, like Sima Yi could even start his own kingdom in the name of Wei, stating that he created the force for Cao Cao.

Ma Chao on the other hand will use this situation to conquer a couple more cities. Liu Bei would still be in Jing but would eventually try to conquer Liu Zhang's land. There would be a small alliance between Ma Chao and Liu Bei until they strife for control of Han Zhong.

Wu on the other hand will start to encroach on Wei territory. They have found the opening that they needed to launch a couple of attacks. With Lu Meng leading the way, they break through and have a foothold on the Central Plains.

This will begin the new era called "The Four Kingdoms Era". Liu Bei to the South West, Sun Quan to the South East, Ma Chao to the North West and the victor of the Cao family to the North East.

The overall victor will be decided on what would happen to alliances. My guess would be that it will be an East VS. West war. Depending on the type of officers Ma Chao will have, will play a crucial role in this war.

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Well at least, that's my opinion.
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