Cao Cao's loss at Chi Bi

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Cao Cao's loss at Chi Bi

Unread postby James » Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:59 pm

Cao Cao suffered a great defeat at Chi Bi. His troops were not properly trained for naval battle and I don't think they were in the best fighting condition when the attack was actually executed.

My question is this: What could Cao Cao have done differently to turn the tides of the Battle at Red Cliffs? Should he have retreated when he learned of Liu Bei and Sun Quan's cooperation? Perhaps he should have stayed and made an effort to work the two of them against each other?
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Unread postby Taishi Guang » Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:18 pm

Although Cao Cao wouldn't have listened to anybody about Chibi, I think he should've waited on the banks of the river and prepared better. It's not like the allies were going anywhere and I doubt they would've attempted a complete land based attack against such a superior force. It would've been suicidal for such an attempt for victory.
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Unread postby starsea » Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:43 pm

I think the easies solution is just sitting back and put some defensive troop on the north bank of Long River.

there is a Chinese saying that there cannot be 2 tigers in the same hill. Same thing here, you put Liu Bei and Sun Quan together, eventually they will try to kill each other if they see no immediate threat from Cao Cao. Then Cao Cao can go to beat the bleeding tiger rather than facing 2 tigers working together.

However at that time Cao Cao wants to rush a victory and unify China. Too bad for him.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:57 pm

Before embarking on such a mission, Cao Cao should have found an area to train his troops for naval warfare and get them used to fighting on water which would eliminate the chaining of the boats. Cao Cao also should have known better than to trust Huang Gai, a renown general of Wu. I'm sure after serving with Huang Gai in the alliance against Dong Zhuo, Cao Cao would have known the guy. He also could have worked to separate Sun Quan and Liu Bei by possibly sending letters to Sun Quan detailing how the "assassination" attempt on Liu Bei should be carried out and sign it from someone like Cheng Pu, but purposefully let Liu Bei intercept the letter so he would be outraged and try to destroy Sun Quan. Then Cao Cao could set himself to destroying the two without problems.
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Unread postby Anshi » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:10 am

Cao Cao, first of all, should not of executed Cai Mao and Zhang Yun, who were better trained in naval battles than any of his own generals. Then, he should have just patiently trained his troops instead of thinking he could bowl through Sun Quan.
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Unread postby The Mask » Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:23 pm

Cao Cao, first of all, should not of executed Cai Mao and Zhang Yun, who were better trained in naval battles than any of his own generals. Then, he should have just patiently trained his troops instead of thinking he could bowl through Sun Quan.

Cao Cao kills them because of Zhou Yu's scheme i think.
And Cao Cao's loss at Chi Bi just because he do not want to hear Cheng Yu's sdvice to beware of the enemies fire attack.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:37 pm

Basically what, Zhang Liao17 said.
If Cao Cao was patient enough to properly train his troops for a naval battle, chaining the ships would be out of the question, ultimately ending in no fire attack, which was the only plan they could've used for such destruction against Cao Cao.
Cao Cao was also a clever man but easily fell to Wu's trickery with Huang Gai, and fell for the plan that prevent his plan of unifacation.
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Hmm...Chi Bi

Unread postby Peter » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:53 pm

well, you can also look things in a different way. Cao Cao was too confident b/c the superiortiy in the number (by historian, Cao Cao gathered around what's estimate three hundred thousand troops in real history. and eighty - seven hundred thousand troops in SGYY) a force can easy defeat in even up to six to one ration (Liu Bei and Sun Quan's combine force is altogether about fivty thousand together). I believe he ignore other significant factors for this one thus made Cao Cao sturrbon......hence the huge lose in Chi Bi.

and to add on what James said about turning the tide of battle. I believe Cao Cao could have follow the other rutes about invasion of Wu.
as you know the "chan-Jian" (long-river) is the natural defense line for Wu. But Sun Quan lack the number to fully defend the entire area.
Cao Cao, in my theory, could have focusing on transporting the massive force to the otehr side and actually try for land battle.

but there are still various problem with such approach. Cao Cao would need a extensive supply rouote planned, otherwise it could not have worked. It's might actually be better if he shrink the size to two third (about two hundred thousand troop, it's will provide an easier task for supply lines)

that's just my two cents, please give me your thought on
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:23 pm

If SGYY is right on this, then Cao Cao at first was highly suspicious of Huang Gai's attempted surrender, but was persuaded by the very good tongue of Huang Gai's friend.

He should have investigated more before he executed his two Jing naval officers, and could have been more kind to Xu Shu, who could have saved Cao Cao's troops if not for the hatred he had for Wei.

He also could have opted to simply leave Sun Quan in Wu for now and taken out Zhang Lu in Hanzhong, which would have opened the way for an attack into Yi. This would have brought him up against the expanding forces of Liu Bei, without the addition of Wei Yan and Huang Zhong. He had a much better chance fighting a land battle in mid-Yi against one weakened, hugely outnumbered opponent then two cunning, slightly less outnumbered allies on sea.
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Unread postby Peter » Sat Oct 25, 2003 2:40 am

Hi, just a different opinion on what Lu Wei said (please, don't kill the Politics and battles occure simultaneously not in a stagewise direction in RTK

Let's examine the politcal situations in ancient China which is unlike fuderal Europe when all nobles fighting each over to unified though conquest. Cao Cao's goal was to subjetation then, if nessary, by force.
the Zhang Lu in Hang Zhong and Liu Zhang in Yi province are currently fighting each other. By pointing your army to invade them, is hard to say there would not be a "Zhang Lu/ Liu Zhang" alliance. On top of that, you also have "Liu Bei/ Sun Quan alliance". so you are facing up to four separate force that could result similar as to "alliance of anti Dong Zhou".

if we assum, Cao Cao dealt a crushing blow to Liu and Sun at Chi Bi (the two biggest opposing forces at that time, but still, not that big). It will surely bring the unification sooner than just having to have wars against all four forces...

that just my opinion though, please post more if you have different

p.s. forgive my spelling errors. "Aghhhhh...."
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